Starting issues By mcgyvre (Read 1,085 times)

[mcgyvre]

Hey gang. I am aware that there is a thread covering this problem, but I have been through it to no avail. I could use some input. I have a 2011 ZNEN 150T-9 with 3450 chino-miles. I have had it 2 weeks and I started having issues with starting it after about a week. At first it was occasional, but has reached the point where it will no longer start. It is similar to a problem I saw, but I could use more info. The starter will not engage and turn the motor over. All I get is a grinding noise with the occasional 'catch' for a revolution or 2. It was suggested to ensure the battery was properly charged. It was, and is every time I do something, as I put a 1.5 amp charger on it while making new guesses. I went through the checklist I found in the earlier thread. I tested the start switch by grounding and testing voltage at R/Y wire - 12.48V. Disconnected solenoid lead to starter and engaged starter - very audible click. I next checked the voltage to solenoid per the procedure - again 12.4ishV. Earlier, I had removed the starter and disassembled it for cleaning. LOTS of carbon dust, but plenty of brushes left and it spun well when not mechanically connected to starter clutch assembly. I took the whole side off down to the starter clutch level. The starter gear was fine with no signs of wear or damage. The shaft was properly aligned within the hole. What I did not do was to remove the clutch assembly as it turned freely in the appropriate direction with no rough spots or dragging, just smooth, effortless turning. When turned in the opposite direction, there was no slipping and turned the engine easily enough. The entire system turned freely. I am at a loss. I even went and bought a new starter at my local unarmed robbery specialist (Chinese owned scooter dealer). They carry most of the standard stuff in stock and must have 80-100 new 50's on the floor. All parts sales are as is and final with absolutely no warranty, and more than double, in most cases, what they can be found for online. Long story short, by the time I paid a friend gas money, the starter cost me $90.00. Needless to say, this did not resolve the issue. Perhaps someone can outline the chain of events that occur when the starter button is pressed. Like Denzel in "Philadelphia", explain it to me like I'm a 6 year old. I have a basic understanding of the system, but really no idea of all that actually occurs. I am mainly interested in the mechanical portion, as I get the electrical and have gone through all the tests I could locate here and cleared all the electrical components to my satisfaction. I suppose the part that bothers me is the way it was not a sudden thing, but started slowly and got worse over a short amount of time, a slope for sure, not a sudden failure. You guys have never failed me yet, so I am counting on you again. This is my transport machine and can't work without it.Thanks in advance for the help.

[jct842]

The start button needs to have one brake or other on to get voltage which when you push it sends voltage to the start solenoid. The 2 big terminals ony the solenoid can be shorted together to do the same as start button. But....the battery is low and it probably will not start. Battery must be at least 12.6 at rest.

[Alleyoop]

Here is the way it works:
When you turn the key on it sends 12volts to anything that needs voltage. The electricl start works this way:
With key on it sends voltage to the brake switchs(both of them), when you squeeze the brakes(either one) it sends voltage to the SOLENOID and to the BRAKE LIGHTS. Then when you push the start button it GROUNDS the solenoid to complete the Ciruit and the solenoid then passes 12volts to the starter.

What you have not done is Jumped the two TERMINALS ON THE SOLENOIDto see if it spins the starter and turns the motor over.
So Jump the terminals on the solenoid and see what happens.
Alleyoop

[mcgyvre]

Thanks for the attention Oop. I did jump them with the same results as using the button - grinding noise. There is no difference. Although I did not outline every step, I did go through your entire procedure to ensure the electrical system was not the issue. I read the entire "Ignition Switch?" thread and when I saw that you were advising him to ensure a good ground to both frame and engine, I got to thinking. As I recently checked and set the valves, it occurred to me that I did not see a grounding wire attached to the valve cover. I checked and traced the ground connection from the battery, and as it turns out, the ONLY ground connection runs from the battery through a connector (along side the positive wire into the same connector - the connector is such that, if unplugged, one could literally lift the battery out with the cables still attached) directly to one of the 2 starter mount bolts. I know a bit of the history of this bike, enough to know the previous owner had NO knowledge whatsoever about ANYTHING it takes to keep a Chinese scooter running and probably did not ever do anything except put gas in it. The wiring looks original to an extent, but there are some oddities in how some things look, but it's hard to say. I do know that it was purchased from Bandit in Eugene, OR which does not have good reviews regarding prep work.

But I digress. Other information that may be of interest in figuring this out is that I have been into the CVT cover a couple of times. Is there something on this side of the engine that could be causing something to bind up? I am leaning toward this entire issue being something mechanical, as these symptoms did not exhibit until after I cracked the CVT cover and I have done all the electrical checks I have found here.

[mcgyvre]

@jct - My first reaction when I read your post was DUHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Then I realized that all of you that are trying to help have no idea what us helpseekers level of knowledge is, so I say THANK YOU to you for your reminder. Even the most knowledgeable among us can forget the simple things sometimes. I am not being sarcastic at all. Your reminder is appreciated. Just to be clear, when the starter is mechanically disconnected, it spins freely when the start button is depressed. This is why I am now starting to believe that something is amiss inside the CVT cover. I did nothing to the flywheel side until this problem arose. The only thing I found inside the CVT cover when I initially cracked it was that the rollers had not been rolling. Every one had a flat spot with most of them almost through the material to the center metal base. The belt shows signs of excessive wear for just over 3000 miles when compared to a new one. Again, I am hoping to get an understanding of what happens mechanically when the start button is pushed. Is the starter shaft horizontally stationary? Both the original and replacement starter have a small amount of in and out play in the gear shaft, but does not appear to be enough to disengage from the corresponding gear. Is there horizontal motion to the starter gear or is it stationary side to side? Do all the gears stay in contact during engine operation? As far as I can deduce, all the gears are supposed to be horizontally stationary. The starter turns the small gear assembly which turns the large gear on the crankshaft. After running, the starter clutch allows the crank to turn with out turning the small gear and therefore the starter. At this point, I am of the opinion that the flywheel side has to be removed again and the starter clutch removed for a thorough inspection. Although it seemed to turn the engine when turned by hand, it seems possible that the clutch bearings could be bad to the point that the high torque supplied by the starter to turn the starter clutch may be too much for a bad clutch assembly causing the grinding noise as the the starter clutch cannot keep a grip on the crankshaft. How does this sound? Feasible?

One other side note just to back up the quality questions regarding Chinese scooters - when performing the electrical checks, I unplugged the solenoid connector to test the starter button. When I went to reconnect the plug, I found that the R/Y and G/Y wires were reversed on opposite sides of the connector. That is, the plug connected the G/Y to the R/Y and vice versa. Apparently, this was not an issue, as the scoot started and ran fine for a week, but I corrected it nonetheless.

[mcgyvre]

Well, I got everything dissected and inspected. All is well with the starter clutch. Upon reassembly, I decided to check operation as each piece was installed. With starter clutch on and starter gear on, it cranked fine. The only way to duplicate the symptom was when I allowed the starter gear to misalign. As long as the starter gear remained in the proper alignment and position, all was well. Next came putting the cover back on. I placed all the bolts into the cover finger tight and, again, all went well. Next, I torqued them down with the same result. Next, test point was after the flywheel install - good again with flywheel on shaft. Next, I torqued down the flywheel nut and BAM! The noise and no engagement were back. Over to the other side to disassemble the CVT. Took everything off and once again loosened the flywheel nut to finger tight. Good engagement. Torque down flywheel nut, some erratic engagement, but mostly grinding. Loosened flywheel nut completely, reassembled CVT and tried again. With just variator torqued on and flywheel nut loose, good engagement. Same when entire CVT reassembled road ready. Good engagement. Now, as long as I don't let the impact go wild, I get mostly good engagement with occasional grinding. Still not 100%, but can get back on the road at least. Have some torque and plenty of loctite on the flywheel nut. We'll see what happens. Again, any ideas would be welcomed.

[Alleyoop]

Ok so now I see what is happening. When you tighten the Flywheel side it is moving the crank out a little it appears and now the Starter Idler Gear is not fully messing with the Starter gear.
Have I got it right what is happening.
Alleyoop

[mcgyvre]

Yes, that appears to be the issue. A couple other things, once it gets warmed up, it starts in a bump, so I can't tell if it does it warm or not (our weather in NC is getting cooler at night now, in the past week as a matter of fact). Second, the starter seems to have trouble getting it up to and past TDC on the compression stroke. Valves were adjusted at .005 intake and .006 exhaust until I read the "Ignition Switch?" thread, so I reset to .004 for both. When disassembled, there is no play at all by hand in the crank on either side.

[Alleyoop]

Did you take the Starter gear off for some reason and then put it back on? Just making sure that you put it back on right that outside washer the bevel side faces out and the flat part against the gear. Now it could just be your Starter Clutch is not releasing and if not it will make a nasty gear grinding.

One other thing it could be that your getting kickbacks on the compression stroke, That also gives out nasty gear grinding, do you have a performance CDI on it?
Alleyoop

[mcgyvre]

I was not able to remove the nut from the starter clutch assembly. I was unable to locate a spanner wrench. I tried the 'pound off' method to no avail. I am aware it is a left hand thread. I started with a stout screwdriver and a claw hammer and got no results getting it to budge all the way up to a 4# hand sledge and a 30" crowbar. It actually dented the crowbar tip. Even heat did no good. There is no performance CDI, I haven't gotten that far yet. I observed the starter gear on every attempt until the cover went on, then observed the flywheel. When it makes the grinding noise, the crank is not turning. Also, when the cover went back on, it slid easily on all the way with no binding or coaxing required, so the idler gear pin is going into the cover properly. Another thing of note. When it has trouble engaging, it usually will turn properly when first engaged. That is to say, quick bumps will spin the crank, but prolonged spinning will produce the grinding sound.The next thing I want to try is to loosen the cover and see if there is any play in the mount position. Perhaps there was a slight miscasting or variance in drilling of the mount holes and rather than letting it seat where it seats, I can position it slightly different, IF there is any side to side or up and down play in the cover mount position. As you can see, I am grasping at straws here. It does seem obvious that with the onset of the cooler weather, this is going to continue to be an issue until I can resolve it, as it will start fine once warmed up. The fact that it starts in a bump when warm tells me that I have no major issues other than resolving this misalignment.

[mcgyvre]

WHOA!!! I was just reviewing your post with the photo of the the starter gear assembly. Your in-pic notes say that the clutch is held in by 3 bolts. Apparently, another dis-assembly is required as I recall seeing no bolts in those 3 holes. As a matter of fact, I noted at one point that there was a misalignment in those holes. That is to say, there seems to be 3 pieces with holes, the starter gear, a steel colored piece that covered about half the hole, and another hole in back that seemed to line up with the starter gear hole, but not positive of this. More on this once I get it apart. I will attempt to post images to show what I am describing. One other question while I have your attention. How much slop should there be in the oil pump drive chain? There seems to be a significant amount in mine.

[mcgyvre]

This is a quick video of what is happening. The scoot is cold. And here - - is a pic of the starter gear washer. As you can see, there is no bevel.

[mcgyvre]

This is a pic showing the bolts that do not line up.



Here is a short vid showing how much play is in the oil pump drive chain as well.

[Alleyoop]

Aha, so it is your starter clutch nothing wrong with the gear teeth and stuff I see if turns the crank sometimes and others not.
So Get a whole new Clutch assembley with the near gear and you will be set.

Also that big washer behind the nut I don't believe that washer should be there.
Alleyoop

Here is Rich project of tearing down a GY6 motor and look at how the Starter clutch all goes together.
scooterdoc.proboards.com/thread/6884/gy6-project?page=1

[mcgyvre]

Guess this clears that up. Something tells me this is supposed to be one piece, not 2 like mine.