Stator question By mcgyvre (Read 414 times)

[mcgyvre]

Good morning everyone! Signed on to post this question and, like u-tube, got all sidetracked reading through all the things that came up when I tried searching for my answer. Now, 2 hours later, I am a little smarter, but still have my original question. 

BTW Senor Oop, my issue turned out to be a bad R/R. What really stinks is that, as my primary mode of transport, I couldn't afford to order online and wait, so the local parts shop nicked me pretty good. When I walked in and asked for it, the well-mannered Chinese woman had no idea what I wanted. I popped the nose off and pointed to it whereby she promptly announced that I wanted a coil. I politely corrected her, whereby she insisted that what I wanted was a CDI. Again, I politely corrected her, so she retreated into the backroom, ostensibly to prove me wrong, and magically reappeared with a box marked Regulator, reluctantly agreeing that I was correct in the first place. As the only source within reasonable travel distance, I fully expected to pay somewhat of a premium, but $38.00 was downright thievery. But, I digress!

Now, I don't claim to know all about electrical, but I do know my way around a meter. That being said, I have ZERO understanding of how or why an R/R being bad affects juice allegedly coming off the circuit in parallel. The yellow wire "Tee's" off before the R/R and goes to the headlight circuit and to the auto choke. The auto choke seemed to work fine but no headlights. It wasn't until I imagined that the yellow wire is carrying juice FROM the R/R TO the stator for excitation voltage, as well as the auto choke and headlight circuits that it SEEMED to make some sense. Regardless of my understanding (or lack thereof), new R/R = headlight circuit works. They still dim out at idle, but I am still working on those minor details. I need the big ones taken care of first. I'm just about ready to begin the fine tuning stuff. I really want to thank ALL of you for the help that you have provided, both directly to me or just by being here and giving us a place to do research. Aw crap! I seem to have digressed again!

Okay, to my question. One thing I did early on was to replace the stator assembly. The original was an 8-pole 4-wire with 2 coils dedicated to the ignition circuit and 6 to the charging circuit. The new one is also an 8-pole but has a wire for ground instead of self grounding through the mounting bolt, making it a 5 wire. The other difference is that it uses only 1 coil for ignition and 7 for charging. What's the difference? Is there an advantage to one way or the other? I found the 2-coil setup is quite rare online and does not seem to be for performance but I don't know. If anybody can shed some light on this for me, I would greatly appreciate it. Once I get done getting it back in reasonable shape, I'll add the pic to my profile and lose the squirrel, but it's seems to be identical to Lantern's scoot. It is a 1P39, if that makes a difference.

[JR]

Going to need a picture of this stator with full views of the wiring lugs/taps on the stator and the color wires. Exact scooter description and motor number. Yes this stator is rare and if memory serves me it's a floating ground stator?

JR

[Alleyoop]

You looking for an 8 pole 4 wire 2 coils dedicated to the ignition circuit like this one:
Alleyoop

www.amazon.com/Alternator-Magneto-Stator-4-wire-Scooter/dp/B009SYZMDE

[mcgyvre]

AS I have done the minor mods to adapt it for the non-floating ground, it is not all that important, but, yes, you have the EXACT one pictured that was in it. The numbers from the side of the motor is {1P39QMB *11WL0043*} and the serial from the front post is {LD5TCBPAX1110707}. It very much resembles Lanternscoot's 2008 Jonway, but someone went wild with flat black spray paint. I, quite by accident, found the stickers on the rear plastic identifying it to the world as an MB-050B-JCL. Other than 'Jonway' on the lens covers, there is no brand name posted on it, I bought it as-is and the owner gave me no paperwork. With the hodge podge of plastic on it, there is no way to know what I have for sure outside of the above numbers. I am quite certain this scoot had been laid down pretty bad at some point with some plastic replaced with whatever would bolt up. It has 2 different grips and mirror styles and colors, but I am fairly certain it is the same scoot Lantern has. Actually, it was my own doing having to replace this unit as I damaged the 6-coil windings circuit when I first tried to pull the flywheel before knowing the coils were under there. I ran a long bolt into the fan mount holes in an attempt to push it off, but completely severed one winding and marred a couple other, none on the 2-coil ignition circuit though. Upon close inspection, it appears that while you call it a floating ground, there is a small plate that actually grounds the unit to the frame directly with one of the 2 mounting bolts in lieu of the 5th (green) wire. It is clearly visible in the photo you posted on the mounting hole between the 2 ignition coils. The ground for those 2 coils are attached to the small plate so the mounting bolt actually grounds it.

Realize that I am not so much interested in the assembly itself, or even getting an exact replacement, but merely to understand what advantage the dual coil ignition gives. As I have continued researching this since my original post, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is a performance advantage. If it is wound the way I think it is, it provides increased voltage to the ignition for a stronger, surer spark. After some major research, I may just use it to practice rewinding the damaged coil windings circuit. As the crash damage to the scoot appears to be on its right side, it could well be another replacement part the previous owner just got his hands on. It's almost as if the person that put this thing back together had both some knowledge and access to excess parts, possibly a scoot scrap yard, per se. The entire electrical system had been extensively modified with aftermarket additions and splices to both the yellow and green circuits. Still at a loss mentally how the bad R/R could have caused my headlight issues while the auto choke still worked fine. In short, I undid many of the yellow circuit mods and rewired it myself to match up exactly with the generic diagrams I found. If I understand the system in general, the white and yellow are the AC outputs from the battery charging (6 coil) circuit to the R/R with the half wave AC voltage off yellow supplying the auto choke and headlight circuit with half wave AC in order to reduce battery load. For such a simple system, it sure does get complicated in a hurry! My earlier assessment of yellow supplying excitation voltage to the windings was obviously wrong. This much I DO know. With all the things I have done, I now have a less powerful machine with a lower top end speed than when I first drove away with it. I reinstalled the muffler, repaired and reinstalled the stock air box, removed the FAIR system, replaced the stator assembly, CDI and R/R. I drove it home initially after purchase and was easily cruising at 40 and could hit 47-48 on flat terrain. Now, I only go above 40 if I am going downhill and then am lucky to hit 45. Its easy cruising speed is around 34-35. Still, I have managed to add 1200 to the odometer in the 6 weeks I have had it, where it only had 5800 when I got it. Heck, I am making day trips of 100 miles or more without taking along my entire carry-bag of tools.

Again, at this point, I am merely seeking knowledge expansion as opposed to repair info.

[Alleyoop]

So the motor is a 1P39QMB, the 139s just so you know are only good for 30-35mph. To get them to do 40 hundreds of folks put in a 72cc bbk. To get them to do over 40mph they put in a 83-100cc bbk.
So if yours can do mid 30s you have a good motor.
Alleyoop

[Bashan]

I agree, two coils for an ignition feed? Seems like overkill. I've thought the same thing, how much AC power does a CDI need to generate the coil feed. I think it's the Chinese mind set, do bizarre things and it will sell components. Think of the nail clipper they try to sell, it has a light on it and a collection bin.

Yes, the yellow splits off from the R/R but that doesn't matter. It is running through the R/R to be regulated to 12v AC so you don't pop your headlight bulb. The AC circuit oscillates back and forth so it runs through the R/R and is preened to 12v AC. But the electrons continue to march back and forth through those wires hooked to the yellow feed as 12v AC . That wire coming from the stator would be around 20 V Ac and varying with RPM if it were not hooked up to the R/R. It would be useless as a power source on a scooter like that. But once it touches that R/R connector it is 12v AC and merrily powers your head light. If you can indulge me a bit, this diagram illustrates just the yellow wire on a W/Y/G pigtail stator:

However, I have illustrated just the yellow wire to try and explain the AC circuit concept on this type of stator. An AC circuit has electrons moving back and forth in the wires. This makes it easy to energize things that need power on the scooter. The magnets spinning around on the coils push the electrons back and forth and creates this AC current. This diagram shows just the headlight but you could substitute many different entities. The blue arrows simply show the electrons moving back and forth.

So with AC current, the electrons move back and forth through the R/R and therefore ALL of the electrons on ANY connection to the R/R yellow wire are 12v AC. Hook a wire on, or the split as you put it, and it's 12v AC. Run it where you want, ground it, and you have energy. That brings me to the next point.

Grounds. With an AC circuit you simply need to hook the circuit to a ground and the electrons can move back and forth in a mosh pit and get all sweaty and..... I don't know what a mosh pit is but my son said I should inject it into one of my ramblings. There...you happy now Pete? Good...now shut your pie hole. These moving electrons, which is all that electricity is, shuttle back and forth on the yellow wire, to the ground, and back to the yellow wire. So there is no FROM the stator. We talk of it like that and it is generated at the stator. But the electrons are moving in the wires on the yellow circuit in one massive dancing troupe of negative particles swaying back and forth....back and forth...back... I did it again...sorry, I really like electricity. .But they are all connected through the grounds and move pushed by the magnets in the flywheel. THAT is why the stator function affects everything along the yellow wire circuit. See...I finally came back to your question. I digress too....it's a curse.
By the way, lights dimming at idle are entirely normal, don't worry about it. Here's how you fix it. Pull in your brake...and gently give it a bit of throttle. They will brighten up!

[JR]

Hey Rich look closely at the taps on the stator pictured. From what I can see it's a floating ground, if so then the R/R he is using isn't a match and while my lights do get a little brighter with increased RPM on my 50cc it's not very noticeable? If he went to a grounded tapped stator then he's going to have to match the R/R to it.

If his old stator is bad then we can't test it by ohming the yellow and white lead which would tell us for sure if it's a floating ground.

JR

[Bashan]

Attend Plebes, the master Alley finds and the master JR analyzes. Notice the tap wires do not touch the frame of the stator. Also notice no green ground wire on the pigtail. That is a floating ground:

I'm comic relief!