. By rosiemoto (Read 11,538 times)

[Alleyoop]

Not a problem glad you got the package and hope at least one or both variators do what you want them to do.
Alleyoop

[jowano]

Any updates rosiemoto?

[rosiemoto]

.

[Alleyoop]

Good to hear you have been trying the new variators out. Hope at least one of them works better than what you had.
Ride Safe
Alleyoop

[rosiemoto]

Alrighty here is everything I've come up with! This is test results on a Peace Sports VIP chinese 150cc 1P157QMJ with everything stock except the variator and rollers that I'm testing here. Clutch and contrasprings blahblah etc all stock. However NOTE that my fan pulley is SMALLER than most scooter's for some reason... so my variator fan is not 115mm but is instead the same size as my stock variator. Results might be different with 115mm fan... not sure. Also some things to know is I don't "tuck" and the roads here are all flat (no downhill). My mph is measured indicated at the speedometer, not GPS. If there's strong wind I'll go both directions with and against, then average it.. but it's usually only a 2 or 3mph difference anyway.

What's important/priority to me; what I'm looking for, and my mindset
- Low cruise RPMs for fuel economy and less stress on engine on bigger roads
- Top speed with extra breathing room so I can keep up when traffic is moving fast.
- Throttle position to maintain cruise, because it feels awesome to be barely pulling the throttle.
- Acceleration off the line so I can beat cars from a stoplight if I need to get in their lane ASAP, BUT I wouldn't mind losing a small amount of acceleration if it makes everything else better.

STOCK VARIATOR (108mm or so?) 
RATINGS: Takeoff: 5/5, Cruise: 3/5, Top speed: 3/5
THOUGHTS: Takeoff RPM and acceleration is good, but very obviously runs out of gearing at 40mph (RPM then climbs steadily)...feels like I'm "locked in gear" often because of that. Cruising at higher speeds needs more throttle than with bigger sized variators, and RPM starts hitting 7k around 50mph...too high for me. Max speed I ever hit on this variator was ONCE on a lucky day...60mph, but I think it's more like 56mph consistently.
11g Dr Pulley sliders: I don't dare to try... it would be way too light.
12g cheap sliders: TOO light still; lost top speed; feels as if belt is slipping. WOT easily went over 7k RPM, and cruising felt weak; needed too much throttle to cruise, which makes RPMs constantly high. Top speed: 52?
13g rollers (stock): Acceleration is strong and steady RPM all the way. No "gearshift."
15g rollers: Low cruising RPMs good for fuel maybe, but WOT acceleration was weaker at 5.6k RPM max. Top speed didn't increase over the 13g rollers.
** I don't have sliders heavy enough for the stock variator... high speed results may be better with sliders.

K&S VARIATOR: (larger than stock, but smaller than Koso?) 
RATINGS: Takeoff: 5/5, Cruise: 3/5, Top speed: 4/5
THOUGHTS: It seems to act similar to my stock variator as far as how it's affected by weights, but this one has increased gearing/more top end. Not a bad thing at all actually. Takeoff is 4-5k RPM which gives me a smooth/steady RPM transition from takeoff to acceleration. Top speed: 60-61mph. I'm not sure when it runs out of gearing yet.
11g Dr Pulley sliders: Same as in stock variator; it would be too light so I didn't try.
12g cheap sliders: too light, lost top speed... 56mph. 7k+ rpm WOT
13g rollers: slightly too light?/slight slip feel when cruising, but top speed is there (60-61mph). 6.7k rpm WOT acceleration.
3x13g rollers + 3x15g rollers: acceleration still good, 6.2k rpm WOT, lowered cruise speed, but lost some top speed: 59mph.
15g rollers: Knew right away too heavy; WOT acceleration at 5.6k rpm; didn't even make it 100ft before I said "nope."
Note: I really want to think the K&S variator wants 14g rollers or 15g sliders. I might order the 15g sliders eventually, but I can't determine how well it cruises (as in how much throttle is needed to cruise) until then.
** I don't have heavy enough sliders to test sliders inside the K&S variator... results may be better with sliders.

KOSO VARIATOR 115mm (genuine version):
RATINGS: Takeoff: 4/5, Cruise: 5/5, Top speed: 5/5
THOUGHTS: High speed cruise monster! My favorite variator of the 3; I'm often cruising 10mph higher than I'm expecting at certain throttle positions and actually have to slow down! Cruises about 50mph at 35% throttle... it feels great. Takeoff RPM seems a little low, between 3k and 4k rpm. I haven't yet figured out what speed it runs out of gearing.
11g Dr Pulley sliders: Too light, lost top speed (56-57mph I think), revs stay high at cruise, WOT is 7k rpm or more. Has that slipping feel.
12g cheap sliders: Good WOT acceleration at 6.4k, 61mph top speed. Cruise 43mph @ 5.2k rpm; 50mph at 5.9k rpm. My favorite setup.
12g Dr Pulley sliders: To be updated...
13g rollers: A little heavy. Weaker acceleration. Runs out of gearing at ~43mph and easily hits 6.5-7k at higher speed like 50-55. Feels like stock variator after 43mph. Top speed is 57-58 @7.2k. Accelerating WOT revs at 5.6k.
15g rollers: Since 13g is already too heavy I won't bother!

Conclusions: My favorite combo so far is the Koso variator + 12g sliders. The Koso with ROLLERS gave me less favorable results (a little better than stock). In my experience, sliders seem to help off-the-line acceleration, top speed, and high speed throttle position very noticeably, but you still need the right weight to get those advantages. I wasn't able to test the K&S and stock variators with the proper weighted sliders for them, so the best I can do is look at the results in a "relative to each other" way. Koso variator and 12g Dr Pulley sliders should be total $40-45... definitely worth it in my opinion, for the gain you get in top speed and overall "effortless" feeling it gives the bike even at higher speeds.

[Alleyoop]

That is exactly why I like the KOSO Variator that I have in there now for over 2 years. It has good take off and once I get up to speed which in my case is really quick do to the 30more ccs I have on the motor I can back off half throttle or even less and cruise at 50mph at 5200 60mp at 6200 it is sweet. Saves the motor and it is not screaming in your ears. The K&S is one that likes heavy weights otherwise the rpms go up.
Good job I am happy that the KOSO I sent you is working for you and you like the results.
Alleyoop

[richardv]

Some great info as usual.

[monte]

be glad its not a harley primary belt.there about 120.00 and up

[monte]

Reading your conversation with rosiemoto.I noticed you said you had 30 more ccs.If a person wanted to go big bore would they be better off to buy a new big bore motor because of the machine work they have to do on the case and the new motor would be a little heavier case or build there old motor. I am talking 180-200 cc motor?

[Alleyoop]

Feb 8, 2016 18:05:27 GMT -6 monte said:

Reading your conversation with rosiemoto.I noticed you said you had 30 more ccs.If a person wanted to go big bore would they be better off to buy a new big bore motor because of the machine work they have to do on the case and the new motor would be a little heavier case or build there old motor. I am talking 180-200 cc motor?

You will find that the 180-200 motors they sell are really bored out 150s. As a matter of fact the 200s they sell are really not 200 they are more in the range of 180 and some in the 160 range. You will find dealers round up the numbers a lot and even change the specs on scoots especially the top mph ratings. They know speed sells so they fluff it up a little.

But just about all your stock AIR COOLED 150s their top speed is really 50mph or a little better and at high rpms.
Your liquid cooled motors make a little more horsepower so a 150 liquid cooled can out perform a AIR COOLED 150.

But you can buy one rated by the dealer at 200cc but knowing it is most likely a 180 or so motor and you will be ahead of the game a little. A good BBK plus labor will run you the same amount as a drop in motor.
Alleyoop

[Alleyoop]

edit: I'm changing Koso's "takeoff" rating to for now. I have a very worn clutch and low RPMs make it slip and jump the bike around, which at first made me think the Koso was bogging the engine at takeoff but it's just my 6 year old stock clutch. So I'll re-rate when I get the new clutch!

After slapping in the clutch it will perform much better that is a given. But if you still want a little more ump starting and getting up to speed you need more RPMS at the low end.

Now there are Three easy means of getting more RPMS from your CVT:
1. Lighter weights but that effects the whole throttle range and may cause loss of top end speed.
2. Stronger Contra spring that is the spring that forces the Clutch pulley to close.
3. Stronger Clutch pad springs those are the springs that hold the 3 clutch pads down and require centrifgual force to have them open and grab the bell to turn your wheel.

Now if you like lower rpms at your top end and cruising speeds but just want stronger starts #1 and #2 are not what you want.

You should go with stronger Clutch Pad springs you can get them rated at 1000, 1500 and 2000.
What the ratings tell you is this. Turn your throttle slowly and notice at what RPMS the scoot starts to move, usually Stock it will move somewhere between 2000-2500 rpms. The spring ratings you ADD that number to your stock rpms for example: If the scoot started to move at 2300 and you put in 1000 rated springs the scoot will now require more centrifgual force created by the higher rpms to climb to around 3300 before it throws out the pads to grab the bell and turn your wheel.

So now your motor is making more power before the load is put on it and it your takeoffs will be stronger. But the Clutch Pad Springs will NOT EFFECT your rpms through out the throttle range it just requires more centrifgual force to engage the bell at starts.

A Stronger Contra Spring is good for hilly areas that you have to always be going up and down hills in your area which require the motor to keep the rpms up.

If your area is basically flat in my opinion I would stay away from a stronger contra spring. Stronger contra springs also wear out your belt quicker because it is putting a lot more force on the belt. The Contra Spring is what Puts force on the outside clutch pulley to close it and push the belt up high while the Variator is trying to force the clutch pulley open to have the belt drop to get top end speed. So just figure it out more rpms are required throughout the throttle range to force the clutch pulley open going against the contra spring.
Alleyoop

[rosiemoto]

Thank you Alleyoop, very detailed and useful info! I think I measured around 3000-3200 rpm is where it's grabbing right now with my old clutch, Koso variator, and 3x12g sliders + 3x11g sliders.

The reason I'm mixing the sliders is..well if you remember before I said one kept flipping on me in my old fake Koso variator... it happened again even in the real Koso you sent me, so you were right that one of the sliders were bad. The bad one has duct tape on it now, so I know which one it is...

Symptoms of flipped slider was: ROUGH takeoffs stuck at 2k RPM; bike wanting to take off on me when starting it with just a small blip of gas; 15mph loss in top speed; an overall feeling of engine weakness starting around 35mph; an obvious "gear change" around 15-20mph that wasn't there before.

...So I thought I'd replace that bad one with one of the Dr Pulley ones you sent me, but I know you can't just replace ONE because throwing it off balance, so I did the stagger thing: 12g, 11g, 12g, 11g, 12g, 11g. Seems to be doing great and all is back to normal... but I'm really surprised because my RPMs haven't seemed to change? I thought my 11g slider + Koso variator test turned out to be wayy too light and lost top speed, but now I'm wondering if I got something mixed up, so I should probably redo that test!

[Alleyoop]

I hope the 11s and 12s are all rollers or sliders do not mix rollers and sliders. I personally do not like to mix weights because at certain rpm 3 weights are not doing a damn thing they are just bouncing around due the the heavier ones creating a gap for the lighter weights lagging behind.

[rosiemoto]

All are sliders, yes.

Question... are the "cheap sliders" and Dr Pulley sliders the same other than durability? In other words, if I have in 12g cheap sliders, then changed to 12g Dr Pulley sliders, would it affect my RPMs differently at all?

[Alleyoop]

They shouldn't the cheaper ones just wear a lot quicker and may not weigh what they should. Usually when you buy the cheap ones and the package says 12g if you weight them you will find that maybe one will come in at 12g and the others 11.6-11.9. That is why I buy nothing but Dr. Pulley weights you pay more but you get what you ordered.
Alleyoop