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Post by kz1000st on Dec 6, 2013 18:42:36 GMT -6
and as is typical with Chinese scoots,No. As is typical with all new anything. Just because your dealer fixes it before he sells it to you, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I seem to remember a recall for a certain Yamaha about rotting electrical connections and leaking fuel pump seals. If Jim had set up Tomcat's scooter personally I'm betting he would have found all those problems, fixed them and Tomcat wouldn't have been the wiser. The same as your Morphous original owner. www.yamaha-motor.com.my/aftersales/pre-delivery_service_check_sheet.pdfGee, just like a Chinese scooter. I also included a blog with flamed wiring on a $6000 Vespa 250 and a link to Modernvespa.com with others experiencing the same thing recently. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is immune to breakdown no matter how much it costs.
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Post by randy on Dec 7, 2013 6:10:12 GMT -6
Kz your right again! Nothing is immune to breakdown.,but some items are prone to breakdown that is also a fact. The Chinese scoots are evolving{remember the Geelys} but cut thru the icing and whip cream they ARE NOT at the level of the "Over priced" scoots . Will they some day probably but not today. Your consistent argument is initial cost. You search the Internet high and low to find someone having a problem with a "overpriced" scoot,look in the tech forms on this very board and look at the issues fellow board members are having brand new and low miler E Bay specials. Of all the 2 wheelers you have in your signature which one has the best build quality? I will go out on limb and guess it would be the "Overpriced" Honda Rebel.
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Post by kz1000st on Dec 7, 2013 7:09:23 GMT -6
Yeah at $4000 OTD five years ago it ought to be. I think you miss the point of my argument. Forty years ago I bought a Kawasaki 500 triple, a noted hand grenade. You think Chinese scooters are bad, read up on early Japanese two strokes. Fried pistons and bearings were abundant. I bought it because I loved the sound, look and idea of a Starship fast 500. Somehow I got 30,000 trouble free miles out of it and sold it to a bozo who blew it up in weeks.
I had to tighten bolts constantly, replace blown headlight bulbs (sealed beams) every two years, adjust the chain every other week and replace fouled plugs every 3,000 miles, etc. Yet I went 30,000 miles on a bike most people couldn't get a year out of. I paid $500 less in 1974 dollars than a 750 Honda, the most reliable bike of its day and could hold on to them in a pitched battle.
Now I use Chinese scooter. Look at my signature. Over 18,000 miles out of three bikes that total $1000 less than my wife's Rebel in cost altogether. I don't flog my stuff, I tighten the bolts, change the oil and adjust the valves. I say that, "Oh yes, a Japanese or brand name scooter is made from slightly better stuff but will it get you further down the road?"
I don't think so Randy. I only lack time and opportunity to rack up miles but once I get something to 12,000 miles on the original engine bits, Randy the BS stops.
I will, once again, show that a conscientious rider who uses his head can go as far on a cheap scooter as he can on a high price special. I'm not the only one doing it either. Not every Chinese scooter owner comes here, you know. There are thousands and thousands of them out there riding untold millions of miles on these things with only routine maintenance being performed.
they ARE NOT at the level of the "Over priced" scoots
Right again. Guess what? A good rider doesn't need it. Maybe it's because I come from a different background than most here in scooterdom. Motorcyclists buy what works. There are $5500 Honda 500s and $30,000 Harleys getting the same speed and miles. It's only a question of ability, desire and what you can afford that determines what you buy. I'm betting there are people out there on $3200 Cleveland Aces and $3000 SYM Wolfs that will go 100,000 miles. Again though, we are just Bikers. What do we know?
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Post by randy on Dec 7, 2013 7:51:13 GMT -6
I owned Kaw. 500and 750 Mach two strokes also. And yes they were high maintenance bikes. I carried spare spark plugs with me at all times. But they were the fastest out of the box darn near race bikes out of the box. My 750 would kill ANY other 750 in a 1/4 mile. So I expected the maintenance part. I am not Anti Chinese scooter at all like I've said before I have owned several China scoots and will buy probably buy several more. I like buying and selling ALL scoots. But you insist on comparing them to the "overpriced" scoots. From experience and can tell you that they can not compare in quality on any of the build point qualities,from fasteners, electronics to simple valve stems in the tires. Why are all the China scoots"Clones" of a overpriced scoot and they want you to associate the quality of a scoot they are coping ?
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Post by kz1000st on Dec 7, 2013 9:58:54 GMT -6
Because you are a moderate about this Chinese scooter thing. There are people who think, act and say that anyone who buys a Chinese scooter has an IQ under 90. My point is that build quality might be pretty but maintenance trumps it. I have the same valve stems in my 5 year old Bashan because every year I wipe them down with Armorall. It's sunlight and the elements that kill them. As for fasteners, my Bashan was sourced from Peace Industries by GS Motorworks with good stuff. I have a Japanese carburetor, excellent bolts and nuts and solid wiring and electrical connections. Buy cheap, you get cheap. Yes I have had some issues with the panels and intake manifold. I also have JB Weld and superglue.
Steve Williams has fried the electrical connection and had his centerstand rot and break on his $6000 250 Vespa (scooter in the sticks blog). Why? Because he insists on riding the thing all winter on salt covered roads and Steve will tell you he's no mechanic. He destroyed his former 150 Vespas crankshaft botching a belt installation. He failed at installing a spark plug cap on his coil wire too. He's someone who needs an expensive scooter and a shop to keep him going.
Somehow none of that has happened to my scooters. I'm not saying my Bashan Biella is made from the same expensive parts as a Vespa. People think I own one though because it looks like it to the uninformed. BMWs are built from aircraft quality metals because the crazy Germans like that stuff. Is a Gold Wing a piece of crap because it isn't? A Wing is made from lesser quality materials and lasts as long as a BMW. A KZ1400 Concours is $8000 cheaper than both. It must really stink.
Materials are vastly overrated. A Harley Road King costs as much as a Victory Cross Country. A CVO Road King is $10,000 more. Look at the stats. Is a Harley better than a Victory for long haul? Worse, is it better than a Kawasaki Voyager?
It will always be this Randy. "It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog"
We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm aware of the differences in materials. I just don't think they matter to a Rider who uses his head and knows his bike, uhh, scooter. Bang for the buck counts for more.
For people disconnected from their equipment, like Luke, an "overpriced" scooter is a must. People like Luke should never own something a dealer won't fix.
And for the record I never said a Stella was overpriced. It's the Royal Enfield Bullet of scooters.
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Post by Guitarman on Dec 7, 2013 17:24:52 GMT -6
Reminds me of an old fast food commercial.... "Parts is parts". LOL
My only gripe is why is it not ok to call a scooter a 'bike'?
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Post by kz1000st on Dec 7, 2013 18:06:53 GMT -6
My only gripe is why is it not ok to call a scooter a 'bike'?
To a motorcyclist they're all bikes. To a certain Admin on another forum, "A bike is a bike and a scooter is a scooter and never the twain shall meet." I think as dual clutch transmissions trickle all over the products, lines will be blurred. Of course there's the flat floorboard argument, but since most larger scooters have a hump it will always be an open discussion.
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Post by Guitarman on Dec 7, 2013 18:59:18 GMT -6
As far as I'm concerned, 2 wheels and a twisty equals 'Bike'.
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Post by kz1000st on Dec 7, 2013 19:05:39 GMT -6
I completely agree with you and I ride and use all my bikes the same. I've even done the interstate up here on my 50cc, just as I have my scooters.
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Post by twowheeler on Dec 7, 2013 19:55:45 GMT -6
Issue resolved....today a harley stopped by my work and I jokingly asked him to race and pointed to mine. He said sure. And then he said 'nice bike"
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Post by LUKE on Dec 9, 2013 0:41:10 GMT -6
what? you said "pointed to mine" i sure hope you didn't point your finger to your banana!! ... that's why he got scared and left with two words to say " nice bike" hahaha ... well, i didnt mention your name too!! im safe!! lol
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Post by novaraptor on Dec 9, 2013 12:35:23 GMT -6
SO, BACK TO THE ORIGINAL DISCUSSION.. I'm pretty sure that, as long as the oil is changed often during the break-in, the bike is not held WOT for extended periods, and reasonable care is taken, either a gentle or hard break in doesn't matter very much. MotoMan makes some very valid points. Piston technology is an old technology, and lots of materials and tolerance improvements have been made. Years ago, I broke in my kz750 by the book. It lasted many years and miles. I broke in my Roketa 250 fast and hard. Coming up on 2 years and 7000 miles and no mechanical problems. Ya' buys yer ticket, and ya' takes yer chance.. If I were buying an expensive vehicle with warranty, I'd probably follow the manufactures break in policy, just to keep the warranty valid. China scooter prices aren't so high that I can't afford a new engine if I toast it. I've paid for my 250 in gas savings over the last two years. It's mostly gravy now..
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Post by LUKE on Dec 9, 2013 20:33:07 GMT -6
We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm aware of the differences in materials. I just don't think they matter to a Rider who uses his head and knows his bike, uhh, scooter. Bang for the buck counts for more.
For people disconnected from their equipment, like Luke, an "overpriced" scooter is a must. People like Luke should never own something a dealer won't fix."
---------------------------------------- there are different types of scooter buyers: 1) the one who buys chinese scooter but doesn't know anything about fixing,but very interested to ride.,who usually just attracted to it's color and shape and shiny-ness and doesnt care about the engine performance. (typical newbie)
2) the one who buys brand new quality japanese scooter online,cash,money order or payments.(definitely not me)
3) the one who buys USED quality japanese(or other non chinese) scooters on Craig's list or Ebay or garage sales and who knows how to fix it. He buys quality scooters in CL with fraction of the cost. (this is me, very practical)
4) the one who buys USED chinese scooters from Craig'slist or Ebay and doesn't know how to fix it..(this is the worst)
5) the one who buys USED chinese scooters on CL or ebay and knows how to fix it...(and eventually regret because mechanical problem comes one after the other, it happens to brand new chinese scooters too,LOL)
my advice to ALL of you: Winter is nearing, a lot of people are selling their used japanese,italian,taiwan scooters in Craig'slist in bargain price., take advantage, scout around. i didn't tell you NOT to buy chinese scooter but i'd say you'll be more happy and worry free when you ride a japanese or italian scooter.
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Post by kz1000st on Dec 10, 2013 9:10:04 GMT -6
No you won't. I bought a Japanese scooter and had to get rid of it before it ate me out of house and home. There are very few 100,000 mile Japanese scooters. Know why? Because they're heavy, underpowered and expensive to fix. Buy Chinese.
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Post by randy on Dec 10, 2013 10:03:37 GMT -6
No you won't. I bought a Japanese scooter and had to get rid of it before it ate me out of house and home. There are very few 100,000 mile Japanese scooters. Know why? Because they're heavy, underpowered and expensive to fix. Buy Chinese. 100k on a Japanese scooter I agree I have NEVER seen it. But I have had a Riva with 23xxx and a Helix with 30xxx that still ran and rode perfect didn't have the no more than normal maintenance items replaced.. You are shooting for 12xxx with your China scoot with "original parts and pieces". Good luck! I think from some of your earlier post that you will have disqualify the one with 5 blown head gaskets. Down to two and a little over half way to the 12k mark. You hold the Japanese scoots to the 100K mark and want to build a monument when a China scoot hits 12k. It is hard to tell when a China scoot hits the mythical 12k because alot of them {as I have witnessed} will show speed in mph and the odometer in kilometers and the owner can't tell the difference. Buy Chinese and comfortable walking shoes. And Don't forget this time of year to buy the U.PS. driver a nice christmas present.
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