Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Nov 14, 2012 22:43:44 GMT -6
Alleyoop,
Oh, Ok Thanks for creating the thread.
Dan
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Nov 13, 2012 19:41:36 GMT -6
Alleyoop, I wrote that last thread before I read your last one telling me to go and read the tread on the workings of a CVT. After reading that thread, I understand how the CVT works much better. Thanks again!!!
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Nov 13, 2012 19:32:20 GMT -6
Hey Alleyoop, I was also wondering... I've read about other people who own Motor Scooter's talking about upgrading the variator, and the clutch. As far as the variator goes, they talk about changing the roller weights, grams size and switching from rollers to sliders. Whats the best in your opinion When they talk about upgrading the clutch, they talk about changing the main clutch spring. What does changing the main spring do for you?
Thanks !!!
Dan
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Nov 13, 2012 18:35:11 GMT -6
Hi Alleyoop, Thanks for responding. Yea, I'll give some thought to trimming those down a bit. What about the roller weights in my variator, could a lighter set of weights, or maybe a heavier set of weights increase the rpms, therefore the cintrifugal force, so that the clutch arms get thrown out harder? I'm not exactly sure what effect the roller weights have on the operation of a Motor Scooter. What happens when the roller weights are increased? and... What happens when the roller weights are decreased? Please answer this question for me, so that I understand what's going on inside the variator. If it's not to difficult that is. If it will take you alot of explaining, then never mind. I'll try and figure it out by looking it up somewhere else online
Thanks again!!!
Dan
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Nov 13, 2012 17:58:48 GMT -6
Hello jct842, Thanks for your input. I went around to several local, neighborhood auto shops today trying to find one that had a 38mm socket, so that I could open up the clutch and get to the pivot points in order to sand them down a bit, so I wouldn't have to lubricate them ever again. I couldn't find one. The largest metric socket that most of them had was a 36mm. So, I looked around the internet at the auto parts stores, and I finally found a 38mm at a place called Salvo Auto Parts here in Baltimore. I took my clutch with me, thank GOD, because as it turns out the nut that secures my clutch together is 42mm. One of the places I had passed earlier in the day was a place that worked on BIG trucks. So, I thought what the heck I'll ask there. Sure enough, one of the mechanics there had the exact size that I needed. He was glad to help me out. He just loosened the nut and I went on home. Now I have the clutch ALL apart, and it seems to me that the arms are moving freely enough. What does seem to be sticking is... There are three really small rubber(?) bushings that the arms seem to get hung up on when the release. They sit on these three little tits that are pressed in to the clutch cover. The part of the cover that also has the pivot pins pressed in to it. The clutch pad arms have a notch in the middle of them, on the side that isn't visible until you take the clutch apart. These rubber(?) bushings seem to me, to be too large or too something, because the clutch pad arms are definately getting hung up a little bit.
Hey Alleyoop, if you don't mind... As soon as you read this could you PLEASE give me your insight on these rubber bushings? You could call me on the phone if you'd like, that would make it easier to discuss this problem. I can be reached at 4436531674 If you don';t want to call, PLEASE write and tell me what you think I should do now. I hopnestly don';t believe that sanding the pivot studs and shinning them up is going to help. Those seem to me to be very free moving. Thanks! Dan
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Nov 13, 2012 0:21:32 GMT -6
OK, I WILL take the original clutch apart, since it is already off of the Scooter, I WILL carefully sand, and polish the swivel points. I have noticed a slight slippage in the clutch bell, but that is definately from the lubrication that I applied. It is really hard to get ALL of the lube off, even using A Q-tip. The only thing that the slippage seems to cause is a much slower take off. I WILL let you know what the final outcome is. It may take me a week or two to get the job done, because I have to decide how I'm going to get that BIG nut off. Whether I'll borrow a large socket from somone, or take it to a neighborhood corner auto shop and ask for a BIG favor?
Thanks Again Alleyoop... for everything!
Dan
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Nov 11, 2012 8:11:00 GMT -6
Hello Again Alleyoop, How have you been? I last posted back in mid-September. @ that time I thought that, WITH YOUR HELP, and that of Ben Butin, I had found what was causing my "SHUDDERING" PROBLEM. I contacted Goldenvale and after a bit of back and forth, they sent me an entire new "Clutch Driven Assembly". If you remember, when we first tried to solve this problem, you suggested that I try lubricating the 3 clutch shoes pivot points in the Clutch Assy. When I lubricated the pivot points/pins/studs, the shaking, or shuddering would go away for several days and my scooter would take off as smooth as silk. I also had troubles riding at a slow seep, say thru a parking lot . Lubricating those pivot points solved BOTH of those problems. My scooter would take off every time, run at very slow speeds, extremely smooooth. That would last for about 10-14 days, or until the lubrication wore off. I was extra careful not to use too much lubrication. I used a syringe type oiler, and a Q-tip to remove any excess lubrication. I also lightly sanded the clutch pads, and the inside of the clutch bell, to remove any excess lubricant. Like I said this fix would last for almost 2 weeks depending of course on how much I rode. Anyway, this NEW CLUTCH has the same exact problems. I received it a few days ago, and I was able, because of the GREAT weather we've had here in Baltimore the past few days, to install it yesterday. Now, I'm wondering what the odds are that BOTH the original, and the NEW CLUTCH, are both defective, in that the pivot pins/studs are a wee bit too large. Could the shuddering/shaking problem be caused by something else, and lubricating the pivot points only made the problem go away because it made the clutch shoes expand so easily? Could I maybe need lighter roller weights? Goldenvale sent me a new variator in the very beginning, but that didn't solve the problem, so I had to send it back as part of the deal for them to send me the new Clutch Assy. Anyway Alleyoop, PLEASE try and think of what could be the problem, and what is it that is causing my shaking/shuddering problem. I am at my wits end here! I guess that maybe I need top take your other advice and take apart the Clutch Assy. and sand the pivot points down a bit, so that they allow the clutch pads to move more freely. My problem is this... How do I determine how much to sand them down? Is there a chance that I might sand them down too much and cause another different and possibly worse problem? Or would I have to really sand alot off before that would happen?
I respect your opinion a lot Alleyoop so... Please advise me as to what you think would be the best way to go about solving this problem... ONCE AND FOR ALL.
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Sept 15, 2012 23:00:51 GMT -6
Alright Now, Here is my final post on the subject of my Shuddering/Shaking MC-54-250cc. Motor Scooter. It turns out that ALL the shuddering was definately being caused by the drive clutch pads sticking. After applying a heavy gear oil, and a bit of axle grease, to the 3 pivot points of the clutch pads, 3 days ago, the shuddering has NOT returned. The entire first day, EVERY take off was as smooth as silk. I was able to drive thru a parking lot, at sppeds less the 2 MPH. without a single shake or shudder. The second day, every once in a while, (maybe 3 times the ENTIRE day) the scooter would shudder when going very, very slow, less then 2 mph. It NEVER shook or shuddered on take off. From my expirence with scooters, and I've had three, a 50cc, (2004 - 2008) a 150cc, (2008 - 2012) and now this 250cc. (2012 - ) Anyway, a little bit of shudddering is completely normal at times during take offs and when riding very slow. It would be so great if every take off, and every time a scooter went less then 2 MPH., it would react as mine did the first day after I lubed the pivot points on the clutch arms, and respond everytime smooth as silk. But they don't. A little bit of shuddering is normal. Now, if my shudddering/shaking problem happens to return, or get worse, I WILL go ahead and remove it, then dis-asssemble the entire drive clutch assembly and sand the pivot points a bit. I am sure, with out a doubt, that would solve the shuddering/shaking problem once and for all. Alleyoop, I couldn't have done it without you! Thank you so very much for ALL of your feedback and insight. Ben Butin, Thanks for leading the way, and for the postings of your shuddering problems.
Good Luck, and GOD Bless!
Dan
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Sept 14, 2012 1:14:19 GMT -6
OK, The springs are like I said... spring colored. They haven't got any paint color on them at all. I lubricated the 3 pivot points on the lutch pads again this morning (yesterday now) I used the heavy gear oil, and then I also applied some grease. A few years ago I purchased a pack of various size syringes to be used to put the gear oil in to my 150cc Roketa. I also ended up buying a pistol grip oil can, so i never used the syringes. I used the largest syringe to put the gear oil on the pivot points, and the smallest to squirt the grease in there. after I had worked the clutch pads a bit, I used a Q-tip to try and make sure that there wasn't any extra grease or oil about, that might get thrown in to the clutch bell when the thing was spinning around. After I reassembled everything, and was ready to take my scooter for a test drive, I crossed my fingers and took off. It took off once again, smoooth as silk. That didn't surprise me, it took off smooth as silk yesterday after I had used the WD 40. The test would come after about 30 minutes of riding. Now, I noticed when I first started off that my rpms had to get higher this time before my scooter would move. I am afraid that I must not have gotten ALL of the extra grease and oil off of the clutch, and it is slipping. It's just a tiny bit, but it is noticable. I rode for just over an hour, stopping and starting about 2 dozen times or so, and NOT ONCE did my scooter shudder. I was able to feel/tell, that the clutch did however slip every time that I took off. I was still able to get the scooter up to 65 mph, it just took a little bit longer. My scooter use to shoot off like a rocket, except for when it would start to shudder of course. I think that today, and the next few days will be the real test as to whether or not We have solved the shuddering problem. I plan on taking a nice long ride everyday for the next few days. The weather here in baltimore has been excellent for riding these past several days. Not to mention great for working on my scoot. Not hot at all, low humidity, nice breeze blowing, just beautiful. Ok, I'll get back to you tomorrow hopefully with a short and sweet report, just saying that my scooter is still NOT shuddering during take offs. I do have one question for you alleyoop... How serious is the clutch slippage? I could live with it a whole lot better then I could the shuddering. I'm thinking about waiting a few days, maybe a week, and then opening up the CVT again, hopefully this would be the last time for a good while, and cleaning up the clutch pads and the clutch bell. You know, cleaning off the excess grease and oil. Does that sound like a good plan, or do you have a better idea?
Dan
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Sept 12, 2012 22:23:17 GMT -6
I can't remember what color the springs on the clutch pads were, I believe that they were just like a natural spring color. You know just a metal colored, nothing special. I'll check tomorrow when I lube them up again, and let you know. My plan is to use some of my 90 weight heavy gear oil. Hopefully that'll do the trick, and I'll be free from this nightmare finally. It was such a great feeling today when I first rode off after spraying the pivot points with the wd40. The scooter started off smooth as silk with absoluetly NO shuddering what so ever. I was sure that we had finally solved this. I still think that we have, it's just as you said, the wd 40 didn't last long as a lubricantans it started to shudder again. Only this time not as bad and not as soon. I was wondering... Do you think that in time, with a little bit of use, the pivot points will wear a bit so that the clutch pads won't be so tight, and need another lube job in the future, or do you think that this is something that I'll have to do every now and then as needed? I guess I'd better wait and see if this heavier oil does the trick tomorrow before I jump ahead to the future, huh?
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Sept 12, 2012 17:52:30 GMT -6
Ok Alley, Thanks for the come back. I'll post again tomorrow, after I lube up those pivot points again and test her out, hopefully with positive results.
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Sept 12, 2012 11:53:59 GMT -6
Well, I took the CVT cover off again this morning. I removed the clutch bell, and the drive clutch assembly. I very carefully oiled the pivot points with WD40, worked the clutch pads in and out, using a scrwew driver just as you suggested. After putting everything back together, I took my scooter for a test drive. When I took off it did so very smoooothly. That's not so unusual because the very first time that I start off every morning it has always taken off smoothly. The true test is after about 10 minutes and 3-4 miles. Well, I was just about ready to call this fix a success, when I headed home and wouldn't you know it, the shuddering suddenly started up again. Not nearly as bad as before, but not as smoothly as it should be either. I believe that you/we are on the right track with this lubrication of the pivot points of the clutch pads. Now I'm wondering if a better oil should have been used, or maybe even some grease? I would have to disassemble the entire clutch in order to apply the grease correctly to the pivot points, but it would surely be worth ALL that if it would solve my problem, once and for all. What do you think Alley? Is wd40 a poor lubricant? Also, I wanted to mention... After I put the clutch bell back on and tightened up the nut, I ran the scooter for awhile, just watching everything do it's thing. I would rev. it up every once in awhile just for the hell of it. Anyway, I noticed that the clutch bell gets pretty hot after awhile. Is this normal? There isn't any blue or purple discoloration showing, it just seems to me to get awefully hot to the touch. I hope that this is normal. I will try tomorrow to lube it up a lot better with a better, thicker oil, and then if necessary I'll try the grease. Is that a good game plan Alleyoop?
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Sept 11, 2012 19:23:23 GMT -6
OK, I'll let you know how everything turns out tomorrow. Hopefully, this will do the trick. Thanks again for all of your feedback and help. Dan
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Sept 11, 2012 16:47:19 GMT -6
Hey Mtsing, I'm not trying to be smart or anything, but have you checked to make sure that you didn't accidently hit the kill switch? Your scooter will turn over and over and over, but never start if it is in the kill postion. I've accidently done this a million times, and when my scooter won't start for whatever reson, the kill switch is the very first thing that I check. Good Luck!
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Joined: Aug 16, 2012 14:46:15 GMT -6
|
Post by damorg5623 on Sept 11, 2012 16:19:59 GMT -6
Hey Alleyoop, Thanks for the feed back. It looks to me like in order to do what you are suggesting, oiling the PAD ARMS, I will need to remove the entire clutch housing and open it up. Would this require me to remove the large nut on the rear of the clutch housing? Because while I do have an electric impact wrench, and I have watched several videos of people doing this, I DO NOT have a socket that BIG. If I were really, really careful not to get ANY oil on the PADS or ANY excess oil that could possibly splash into the Clutch Bell do you think that I could oil these PAD ARMS without taking the clutch apart all the way? If so, I will try to do this tomorrow morning. Also, I was wondering... I noticed that when I replaced the variator fan, it seems top only go halfway up the splines. It almost seemed to me that the Boss Pin was possibly too long. Because of the way that the variator fan is positioned on the drive shaft, I noticed that it makes it very tricky to get the nut on the drove shaft without pinching the drove belt. Do you know what I am trying to say? If you do, then everything is normal. It just seemed to me that the variator fan should be flush with the ends of the splines on the drive shaft, and that the splines should not be somewhere in the middle of the variator fan hub. Does this make any sense at all?
Also, Please let me know if you think that I should try to oil the pad arms without opening up the clutch housing entirely. Thanks !
Dan
|
|