Rear-ended and Not Happy By vintner (Read 2,030 times)

[vintner]

Some of the reasons I have been considering the Kymco Downtown 300i is:
* Engine size. Rather than avoid a section of highway near my house, it would be nice to get on the road and get where I am heading directly. I could hit 60 with the Jonway, but it took a while to get there.
* Tire size. Slightly larger tires just roll better and a little smoother.
* Locally sold. Since I had so much problems with the Jonway and getting parts and service, I wanted to go local so I have parts and service. Scooterville has the bike and can service it if it takes more than what I can or want to do.
* Bike is getting great reviews, other than leg room. I (unfortunately) am not tall, so leg room shouldn't be an issue.
* I am concerned about buying used scoots. Am I going to get someone else's junk? My wife said I could have the same problem with a used car, but as I told her, there is a repair shop every 2 miles in this area. Scooter shops are tougher to find and they don't always repair the other brands of scoots.

Those are my thoughts that brought me to the Kymco Downtown. If I am missing something that I should consider, please update me.

I did look at the Suzuki Burgman 400. It also gets great reviews and is sold locally. Seems to be pricey though. I looked for larger sized CFMoto and Syms, but still like the Kymco. I have not been to a shop to do a 'sit down' comparison yet. That starts Saturday.

[jct842]

Just between you and me I think your concerns on getting some one elses junk is very valid especially on an expensive scooter. On a chinese scooter you can only loose so much. In Jan of 2010 I bought a used 2007 Yamaha Majesty 400. I had just sold a 1200cc Suz Bandit and had a very bad knee. I did not get to ride much at all. I bought it from a Yamaha dealer and thought I had a good deal untill the blow-by started. Bad decision. Yamaha USA does not stock oversized rings and pistons and dealers don't stock anything. It was a nightmare to repair it. I had to do the work or junk it...if I hadn't I would have had the price of a new machine in a 2007. If you are going to do the work on a chinese scooter your self parts are 3-4 days away....On a Yamaha a min of 8 days no matter if you use a local dealer or a internet dealer and I do not know if other name brands stock parts but the yamaha dealers do not. Kymco and Syms look good especially if you have a dealer close by.

[jaksonbrown]

Aug 8, 2012 6:22:34 GMT -6 vintner said:

Hey Park, I only get cranky when I read your rambling as in your reply #4. And of course when I get rear ended and loose a bike.

That's okay Park, I understand that is just your style.

I only get cranky when I read your rambling as in your reply #4.

What do you expect out of a manic depressive who puts roach powder in a engine? ;D

[jct842]

Now that you mention it JAK it is more than incoherent rambling. park, aka earthman, teranuvo, and probably a dozen more AKAs ought to just shut up till he knows some thing for sure/ every time people get him figured out he just changes his name and starts over!

[kz1000st]

You should contact Dave Harrington at www.justgottascoot.com

He's a Kymco fanatic and knows all the good dealers in your area. He even liked the CF Moto Jetmax so he's not a total Chinophobe.

[jaksonbrown]

Aug 8, 2012 12:53:45 GMT -6 jct842 said:

Now that you mention it JAK it is more than incoherent rambling. park, aka earthman, teranuvo, and probably a dozen more AKAs ought to just shut up till he knows some thing for sure/ every time people get him figured out he just changes his name and starts over!

incoherent rambling

You mean like this?

MY GOSH A depressed BUSY MIND CAN MAKE THE BEST FANTASY OF EVERY SITUATION CAN'T THEY.

TISK TISK AND NOW FALSE ACCUSATIONS, manic delusions ..next it will be pink elephants

[vintner]

Aug 8, 2012 14:08:32 GMT -6 kz1000st said:

You should contact Dave Harrington at www.justgottascoot.com

He's a Kymco fanatic and knows all the good dealers in your area. He even liked the CF Moto Jetmax so he's not a total Chinophobe.

I was reading the articles from Dave H in Justgottascoot.com and really liked his comparison of similar models; Majesty and Burgman, two models I also looked at.

I looked his pluses and minuses of the model. I like what the Downtown but will also be checking out the Jetmax if GoMoto has one in stock.

[kz1000st]

www.justgottascoot.com/cfmotojetmax.htm

I felt that 22 hp and Dave's lack of complaints on a mainland Chinese scoot were practically a rave. Especially now that I own a CF Moto.

[jaksonbrown]

The CFMoto JetMax is powered by an in-house designed and manufactured 4-stroke, 249cc, SOHC, liquid-cooled and fuel-injected motor that produces 22 HP and 15 Ft-Lb of torque. It rides on a 15 inch tire up front with a 14 inch in the back. Triple disks (two in front, one in back) handle the braking duty. I elected to NOT make a comparison between the JetMax and other scooters in the specification table because I don't have any direct experience with Chinese 250s other than the CFMoto Fashion. There are others in the marketplace (the Linhai Main Street comes to mind) but based on the in-house development I consider the JetMax a "stand-alone" as of now.

Getting exact specifications for the JetMax was bit challenging as different CFMoto sources had different information. For example published dry weight for the scooter varies from 260 pounds to 440 pounds


22 HP, 15lbs torque, 249cc ? More like 16HP, same old you really don't know what the specs are.

Good selling point .

[justbuggin]

Well tell me something did doing this get the bugs out

What do you expect out of a manic depressive who puts roach powder in a engine?

Read more: scooterdoc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=6744&page=2#ixzz2319PhmxY

[vintner]

This HP issue is something that has confused me when I look at specs. When I first started looking for a scoot oh so long ago (March), I would see 250cc scoots generally with16-18 HP rating. Now I see scoots with 250cc is 22HP. I understand the bore and stroke and crankshaft all go into the ratings, but maybe HP should be listed as highly as cc. Although in cars, they are displaying the engine size on the decals on the car. Of course, my 4 cyl. Saturn Vue does not proudly display 2.2l.

[kz1000st]

I'm sure the Jetmax makes more than 16 hp. As I recall it has four valves to go with the fuel injection. If it was nothing more than a rebaked Linhai it wouldn't get out of its own way and Dave would have noted it. My Fashion's owners manual says 14 hp. If they were going to lie I don't think they would have waited until now.

[jaksonbrown]

Aug 9, 2012 13:03:56 GMT -6 kz1000st said:

I'm sure the Jetmax makes more than 16 hp. As I recall it has four valves to go with the fuel injection. If it was nothing more than a rebaked Linhai it wouldn't get out of its own way and Dave would have noted it. My Fashion's owners manual says 14 hp. If they were going to lie I don't think they would have waited until now.

Doesn't matter EFI, HP is piston bore, stroke and gearing and no one indicated Dave was lying but it's just a review and IMO not a very good one because he himself was basing it against one scooter:

I elected to NOT make a comparison between the JetMax and other scooters in the specification table because I don't have any direct experience with Chinese 250s other than the CFMoto Fashion

Also he himself said the specs were everywhere:

Getting exact specifications for the JetMax was bit challenging as different CFMoto sources had different information. For example published dry weight for the scooter varies from 260 pounds to 440 .

He didn't say the specs were accurate but said what it was listed at and 22HP is a loooooong stretch on a 250. If the engine is like a lot of 250's especially like some CFMoto engines of the past the actually rating of the engine is 244cc.

So for kicks just say the scooter is like the Fashion coming in at over 350lbs and with only 15lb of torque add another 200 for a rider and 22HP is even a longer stretch.

He also made comparisions of speedometer being off and the fuel mileage won't stack up to other 250's.

Dave's reviews even though thorough are simply an opinion based upon him riding the scooter one time.

If CfMoto cannot provide current and accurate specs especially since they claim to be the "better" Chinese scooter then just like the others it'll be up to the person who buys it to find out the truth and since CFMoto seems to be giving up on long time proven scooters like the E-Charm they seem to be lowering there once quality standards in the name of staying in business.

It would pay to do a PDI one one of these just like the cheap online Chinese scooter as it seems they are doing the same thing now.

Only question is are they going to compete with the lower price tags of the others. I say if they don't they be in the TANK before long.

[kz1000st]

I don't find acquiring the specs for a Jetmax challenging.

www.cfmoto-us.com/onroad/details.aspx?productId=30

Displacement249.2cc
Bore & Stroke72 X 61.2mm（2.83X2.4inch）
Compression Ratio10.5:1
Fuel SystemElectronic Fuel Injection
Max. Power Output16.5 kw/8000 r/min（22.45HP）
Max. Torque21 N·m/6500 r/min
Cooling SystemLiquid cooled
IgnitionECU
StartingElectric
TransmissionCVT
LubricationPressure& Splash

Dimensions and Weight

L x W x H2,259 x 798 x 1,366mm（88.94 x31.42x53.78inch）
Wheelbase1,590mm（62.59inch）
Seat Height718mm （28.26inch）
Ground Clearance120mm（4.72inch）
Fuel Capacity12.5 litres（3.31gallon）
Dry Weight200kg （440 LB）


Gee, that was hard. Note that CF Moto themselves aren't embarrassed at all to admit the bike weighs 440 lbs ( I converted the kilograms to pounds with my TI-85 graphing calculator) Let me put that number in perspective for you. My old Kawasaki W650 weighed 450 pounds and had 45 horsepower. It only did 107 mph flat out according to Cycle World and the quarter in 14.9 seconds. If the Jetmax only put out 16 horsepower like a two valve Linhai it wouldn't even move. I won't go into the advantages of four valves over two. Most modern motorcycles have them, it allows for bigger volume of both exhaust and intake. Something Harley hasn't learned yet, although Victory has. If the scooter was as anemic as you claim I'm sure Dave would have noted it. Your pant's seat doesn't lie nor does being buried by a little old man in a Buick.

By the way. Bore and stroke are a matter of function and space considerations. A short stroke (like the Jetmax) engine is always better in every way. It can be tuned for low end torque and high engine speeds. A long stroke engine will always be limited by piston speeds so it has to be satisfied making torque.

[jaksonbrown]

OK so now instead of relying on a review by Dave who couldn't take the time to really look those specs up you now have the specs from the most reliable source CfMoto who of course wouldn't dare stretch anything for a sales pitch.

Since you want to talk about speed which I never said anything about and now have the facts of the weight, torque along with bore and displacement then use their own numbers to see how well it's figured. EFI and a couple of valves are offset by scooter and rider weight of an average of 650lbs and don't even figure in wind drag or such. Any good man with a carb can accomplish the same amount of fuel as EFI doesn't add squat to HP in fact a good carb man can make more power with a carb. Extra valves help to a point but the engine will only take on so much fuel, got to match the air with it. But we aren't talking about racing, this is a stock engine.

Also this is a scooter review to even consider using a chain driven motorcycle as a comparision is way off base. Motocycles covert all of the HP to the wheel with a chain and different speed transmissions while any scooter looses lots of HP with a CVT and belt. I didn't even see Dave try that, again he stated his ONLY comparision was another CFMoto. Comparing a scooter to a motorcycle in any way would be like comparing a school bus to a Corvett especailly if they were the same displacement.

Use any of the handy online calculators to figure HP, heres one do take note it's one used by the racers;

www.wallaceracing.com/hp-bore-stroke.php

As I said all sales hype and at it's best I'll give it the 19.45 HP.

Maybe you can help Dave on his next review? Got to remember these reviews are kind of the old buddy deal, I'm sure old Dave has one of these in his driveway from CfMoto for his words of wisdom but he really does need to visit the CFMoto site next time instead of using these challenging specs by different CFMoto sources. His review clearly can be seen on all the other things metioned that in lots of ways the CFMoto is the typical Chinese scooter but with the untypical price tag.

In todays economy a untypical price tag means dust gathering on the sale room floor while the typical Chinese scooter with the lower price is running down the road.


Even his final conclusion shows the typical Chinese flaws:

As nice as the powertrain on the JetMax is, the fit and finish make it clear that this scooter is not up to the same standards as machines from Japan and Taiwan.


When it has a $4000 price tag with this conclusion one needs to get lucky on a Craigslist find or buy two of the typical Chinese 250's and do a good PDI.