starting issues By scooterfox007 (Read 2,142 times)

[scooterfox007]

okay i have a Apache BMS 150 that's having some major issues starting while cold. I do know these little engines hate being cold but when you're sitting there long enough to drain your whole battery trying to start it something must be wrong.

Signs that something is wrong:

1.battery seemed to act like it's drained when cold out
2. once started wont idle on it's own (even with adjusting idle screw)
3. once engine is warm and the auto choke should be functioning engine begins reving high then low then back to high (even with idle speed set low)
4. once a few miles down the road engine continues to remain on high revs enough to make staying stationary at stop lights difficult.

Things that I suspect as problem

1. auto choke isn't functioning properly
2. carb might have a small clog somewhere i can't see (tried cleaning it didn't seem like it needed it)
3. the valve screw may need adjusting.

before i start taking things apart i want to see if this is a common issue and if there's any suggestions. I suspect most of this issue has something to do with the low RPM design of the carb.

[kz1000st]

Want the simple answer? Bring it inside where it's warm and see if the problems go away. I have a scoot that went dead in my garage and once I brought it inside it started and ran like a champ. These things are made from low tolerant materials and don't like the cold. You could have a carb that's sticking from binding metal, a diaphragm that's gone hard or a host of cold material related things. Remember that the carb is insulated from the engine and never warms up. Added to that the cold air rushing through makes for a very chilly environment.

[scooterfox007]

thanks for the suggest kz but we already tried that. I was thinking the same thing, "well if it's cold then why not let it warm up somewhere warm first." It worked for a few days but now its having issues even in the day light. Mind you it does start easier with it a bit warmer out but it is still having issues.

[Alleyoop]

Scooterfox007,
If it idles high then low bounceing around like that, it is to LEAN. Now Lean can be caused by several things.
1. You have Air Leaks around the Carb, so check the Intake and connections to the Carb to the Rubber Intake hose and or the Rubber Intake Connector or the Intake itself are old and or have tears in them.
2. Check your Air/Filter connections to your Carb.
3. Check your Vacuum Hoses for leaks.
4. Check your Fuel Filter it may be Clogged.
5. Check is your Pilot jet Passages they may be clogged. Take your Jets out and clean them Spray Carb Cleaner in them, also into the holes they came out of. Then take your Air/Fuel mixture screw out and Spary Carb Cleaner in there as well. Now when you take your Air/Fuel mixture screw out be carefull there is a Spring,Washer and a Rubber o-ring in that order. They are tiny and if you drop them they are hard to find.

It all sounds like a fuel delivery problem Lean Condition. The Idle should be set so that on the stand the Rear Wheel should just want to turn. If the wheel is spinning the Idle is to HIGH.
The Idle should be around 1500-1800 where ever it idles the smoothest for you.

Now if it dies when you set the idle where it should be after the engine is nice and hot then Adjust your Valves. Dieing out when you stop after the engine is hot is 99.9 percent caused by your valves being to tight.
Alleyoop

[scooterfox007]

thanks alley. i'll take a crack at it and see if there's any changes

[Alleyoop]

Scooterfox007,
Yea, a good way to find out if your Pilot Jet passages are clogged is turn the Air/Fuel Mixture in or out waiting 10-15 seconds after every 1/4 turn and see if the rpms change on you. If they don't then that tells you that the Air/Fuel mixture is not doing squat for you and the Pilot jet passages or jet is clogged.

Let me know how it goes it has to be one of those items causing your problem. If it was your Fuel Pump or Petcock it would be bogging on you at higher rpms due to lack of fuel getting to your carb.
Alleyoop

[scooterfox007]

okay well I started to adjust the screw and it did change the rpms so that's a good sign. I noticed that the screw was way off tuning wise as it was almost 6 turns out from all the way in. I have the screw turned 1/2 turn from all the way in and it seems to have helped stop the rpm issue at lights but it still didn't want to start tonight as i just had to jump it to get home. I'm not sure if i set the fuel/air mixture screw right nor am i familiar with how exactly to set it.

[Alleyoop]

Scooterfox007,
Here is how to set it:
Alleyoop

ADJUSTING YOUR AIR/FUEL MIXTURE:

YOU WANT THE HIGHEST RPMS OUT OF THE AIR/FUEL MIXTURE SCREW:

This is for you common CV Carbs that have the Air Fuel Mixture Screw Near the INTAKE goint to the Engine. Other Carbs may have the Air/Fuel Mixture On the Air Filter Side with those JUST CHANGE the WORDS "CLOCKWISE to COUNTER CLOCKWISE" and "COUNTER CLOCKWISE to CLOCKWISE" other than that same thing applies.

Before you start it Turn the Air/Fuel Mixture Screw CLOCKWISE UNTIL IT STOPS do not tighten it just until it stops BUT COUNT how many TURNS IT TOOK TO CLOSE it. Then Turn it COUNTER CLOCKWISE the same amount of turns back to where it was.
Then Start your scoot and Get The Engine Nice and Hot about 10 minutes so that the Enricher is no longer Allowing Extra Fuel to come in. Then do the following to fine tune the Air/Fuel Ratio:

RICHEN THE AIR/FUEL MIXTURE:
1. Turn the Air/Fuel Mixture COUNTER CLOCKWISE 1/4 turn and wait 10-15 seconds to let the engine catch up with the new setting.
a. If the RPMS go up REPEAT 1 UNTIL the RPMS GO DOWN OR NO CHANGE.
b. Then TURN the Air/Fuel Mixture 1/8 CLOCKWISE and that should be your highest Air/Fuel Mixture setting.

"""If on the FIRST 1/4 TURN from the STARTING Position IN #1 ABOVE the RPMS GO DOWN OR NO CHANGE , turn the Air/Fuel Mixture Back the 1/4 turn to the Starting position and wait 10-15 seconds until the engine catchs up and go to #2"""

LEAN THE AIR/FUEL MIXTURE:
2. Turn the Air/Fuel Mixture CLOCKWISE 1/4 turn and wait 10-15 seconds to let the engine catch up with the new setting.
a. If the RPMS go up REPEAT 2 UNTIL the RPMS GO DOWN OR NO CHANGE.
b. Then TURN the Air/Fuel Mixture 1/8 COUNTER CLOCKWISE and that should be your highest Air/Fuel Mixture setting.

IDLE SPEED SCREW:
3. If after adjusting your Air/Fuel Mixture your idle is to fast Turn the IDLE SPEED SCREW COUNTER CLOCKWISE until your Rear Wheel JUST Barely wants to Turn or around 1500-1800 rpms.

4. If 1 or 2 above DOES NOT produce any RPM Change you most likely have a CLOGGED PILOT JET "OR" you did not get the ENGINE HOT ENOUGH and you were working against the ENRICHER which has not yet closed off the extra fuel. If the engine was nice and hot running for about 10 minutes and the Enricher was off then its time to take off the Carb and Clean out the Jets and all the Carb Passages.

If adjusted correctly you should be able to give the Throttle a QUICK half turn and the Engine should REV UP with no bogging hesitation and get a nice VROOOOOOOOOOOM. The Rpms should come down nice and settle at the Rpms you set your Idle to.

[scooterfox007]

well here's the final outcome so far.

The carb is fully adjusted properly and i did find a leak in my vacuum lines and the spark plug was loose.

The down-side:

1. scooter is STILL having issues starting
2. Battery is still dying quickly

The up-sides:

1. Acceleration has increased
2. The high and low reving while sitting at lights has stopped.

Things that could still be wrong:

1. Battery could be bad and need to be replaced.
2. Autochoke could be bad and need to be replaced.

Any of you guys think you may know what exactly this things issue is let me know.

[Alleyoop]

Scooterfox007,
FANTASTIC!!! Good job, the hard starting when cold could be your Enricher(CHOKE) not working OR your Valves need to be adjusted.

But you can check IF it is your Enricher that is causeing the Hard Starts real easy.

1. Take off the Enricher WHEN IT IS FLAT OUT COLD and look at it. If you see a SPRING between the PLUNGER and the Rubber it is not working( It is in the EXTENDED POSITION and you are not getting EXTRA FUEL when COLD and you need a new one.

** And you can verify that if the Enricher(CHOKE) was working it would start for you much easier.
After you take the Enricher(CHOKE ) off lay it down and COVER the hole with your hands or thumb or something and try starting it. What you are actually doing is CHOKEING with your hands. If it cranks up you just proved you need a new Enricher.**

2. If it is Retracted you do not see any Spring and the Plunger Should be a little Retracted into the Rubber houseing hole Then the Hard Starting when Cold points to your Valves need to be adjusted.

You can test the battery with a VOM, sitting there you should get a reading of about 12.5 or so. On the Stand revving it up around 2000-3000 rpms the VOLTS should go up over 13 If it doesn't then it is most likely your REGULATOR/RECTIFIER that needs to be replaced because it is not charging your battery.
Alleyoop

[scooterfox007]

Well i have found out all the issues that are causing this starting issue.

1. my choke is bad, it's forever stuck in the extended position which i already know is causing a hard start
2. my battery may be on its last leg as it's only pushing like 90 cold start amps or something like that. It failed a battery test at checkers auto parts but it may just need to be charged fully.

The problem is i currently don't have the finances to simply replace these parts and the local scooter shop says i can't simply just replace the choke i'd have to buy a new carb to get the choke. So if any of you guys have suggestions on how to start this thing let me know.

Please note some things. It starts just fine when warm. It doesn't want to start at all when cold. I don't have enough juice to crank it past 1 minute of continuous power. And it doesn't want to start instantly when put on a car battery.

I was thinking of buying a bottle of starter fluid and seeing if that does the trick for now. please let me know you're ideas

[Cruiser]

Many of our preferred vendors have the electric enricher. For instance, Scrappydog scooters has it for $15 under common scooter parts. It will be very hard to start your scoot without the choking function. Your battery sounds like it isn't too bad if it cranks the engine for up to a minute. However, cranking the starter for more than a few seconds at a time can overheat and damage it. 90 cold start amps is about right for the OEM batteries when they are in good shape. Most replacement batteries will run around 100 to 120 cca so your battery has some life in it. Most people prefer carb cleaner spray as a starter fluid in order to prevent damage to the internal parts of the carburetor.

[scooterfox007]

thanks cruiser. i'm kind of hoping i don't need to order a auto choke online. I'm in arizona and we have a few scooter shops in town. I'll try the carb cleaner as i have plenty of it

[scooterfox007]

well guys doesn't matter what the starting problem is anymore cause i just burnt out my starter. So now i have a complete dead scooter with a broken choke and bad battery to add it all up.

[Alleyoop]

That is a bummer Sorry , now it is going to cost you just a few bucks more.
Alleyoop