Newbie with wiring question By philosophydoc (Read 9,964 times)

[insanetexan]

cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MOPED-BATTERY-12V-8A-JONWAY-SUNL-ROKETA-JCL-TAOTAO-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5d2dd88bf3QQitemZ400201124851QQptZMotorsQ5fATVQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

If you have an Ebay account the guy that sells these batteries has lots mor stuff that may help and he is reasonable priced.

[philosophydoc]

Thanks -- have you done business with them?

[insanetexan]

Yes I have gotten several items from them. Purchased a windshield and one of those batteries. No problems with them.

[philosophydoc]

Thanks for the info, insanetexan -- I just ordered the battery you noted AND a starter motor for $69.87 shipped.

Doc JR, the multimeter arrives today, so I'll start tracing leads when I get home.

[philosophydoc]

Okay, a hectic weekend, but here's the latest...

Battery arrived, added electrolyte, charged up fine (12.92 on new multimeter). Starter motor wasn't included in shipment(!), but should hear from vendor today.

Tested green wire in several places using new MM -- I did get resistance, but no clear reading (MM is autoranging, so it tends to take a while to settle down). A few questions:

(1) Am I correct that the best place to "ground" the black lead is on an unpainted part of the frame? Painted surfaces often less stable readings...finally used the interior threads of a nut welded to the frame (largely paint-free) and consistently got a resistance reading, but no consistent reading (i.e. always showed resistance, but it continually climbed up and down (10.0 to 0.1, and almost every increment in-between).

(2) I have a dead battery that came with the scoot (reads less than one volt on the MM), and when I used it to "ground" the black lead on the MM I got no reading at all. Of course, when I used the battery, it was not attached to the scoot at all...would that make it an ineffective ground?

(3) Am going to follow Big Guy's scooter pdi (http://x1scooters.com/pdi.html) as much as possible while my scooter is largely disassembled, and yesterday removed the cheap battery fuse and soldered a blade fuse holder in its place. Can't tell amperage on fuse -- should I insert a 10, 15, or 20 amp fuse?

(4) A final oddity -- when I received scoot, owner gave me a box of parts that he swore contained everything. Unfortunately, a number of parts were included that don't appear to belong (extra carb, etc.). A vacuum fuel pump was included -- here's a pic:



...but I can find no hole on the frame that it appears to attach to. It's possible the gas line never had one attached...or is it? A final pic with some numbered areas of interest...



#1 shows the fuel filter...following the gas line to the left of the filter, it connects to the carb, but the other end just terminates, and if I replace the seat insert with the gas tank, that line barely reaches the tank nipple. Now most of what I've seen on the board (and the nifty GY6 video video here - chinesescooterreference.com/pdi.htm suggests that if a vacuum pump had originally been present, it would (should?) have been located between the fuel filter and the carb. As I am going to replace all these fuel lines, my questions are these:

(1) Should I install this vacuum pump?

(2) If so, does its height matter, relative to the carb inlet (i.e. with a gravity feed, clearly the tank needs to be higher than that carb, but if I install the vacuum pump, can it be either at the same height as or a shade lower than that inlet to the carb?)

(3) Does the orientation of the fuel pump matter? (Is orienting it flat -- like a flying saucer -- better, worse, or immaterial? Vacuum feed on top or bottom?)

Finally, while I have you all here, #2 shows the only unconnected vacuum hose I have, which I believe connects to #3 (which goes to the charcoal cannister for the PCV)..... in reply #13, to get an extra vacuum feed to run the fuel pump. (This appears to be for a linhai engine, so I'll need to make adjustments). Is that correct?

Thanks again...

[insanetexan]

Hopefully this helps. On my 54B the fuel pump is mounted on the frame below the gas tank under the floorboard on the right hand side. The fuel filter is between the tank and pump between the skid plate bottom and gas tank. It is installed flat with the vacuum inlet looking up.

[Cruiser]

The green wire is the ground system for the frame and scooter electronics. There may be several green wires running around the scoot. They should all be connected in one way or another to the scooter frame which is in turn connected to the black cable of the battery (negative side). Any connections to the frame should be on unpainted metal. Sanding the frame at the connection point is the usual way to go. Make sure that the engine is also grounded to the frame (usually a black wire). When checking ground connections with the meter, the readings should be less than 1 or 2 ohms max. Does the meter read zero when you touch its leads together? If not, then the meter leads are introducing a reading which has to be taken into account.

Get rid of the dead battery as it has no value when troubleshooting your scoot. It has to be physically connected to the scoot in order to get a ground reading.

A 20 amp fuse would be good for the main fuse from the battery.

If the outlet of the fuel tank is above the carb, then the fuel pump you have is not a fuel pump. It is known as a vacuum fuel petcock which is a vacuum operated shutoff for the fuel supply. Opens when the engine is running and shuts off when the engine is off.

Number 2 should go to the vacuum inlet of the petcock. The other end of the line with the fuel filter goes to the gas outlet of the petcock. You will need another fuel line to go from the fuel tank to the fuel inlet of the petcock. Location and orientation of the petcock is not critical as long as it is below the outlet of the fuel tank.

You have the CfMoto engine.

[philosophydoc]

Okay, sorry for the "petcock or fuel pump" confusion -- the web site I pulled the pic from identified the part as a "FUEL PUMP VALVE PETCOCK."

I will check the multimeter leads when I get home.

Finally, here is a better picture of #3 from the previous post:



If I follow Cruiser's advice and hook up my lone unconnected vacuum hose to the vacuum fuel petcock, there are no further vacuum hoses left to connect to hose barb shown here (on the right side). Is this be a problem? Again, the vacuum hose coming out of the left side heads to the charcoal cannister. (The cannister is visible at about 8'o'clock from the wire clip).

Thanks

[Alleyoop]

Looks like you found where the Unconnected Vacumm hose goes.

Curious, did it come that way or did you change out hoses and forgot where things connected to?
Alleyoop

[philosophydoc]

Okay, I think I need to be directed to a tutorial (if one exists) on:

(1) vacuum fuel petcocks
(2) vacuum fuel pumps, and,

...whether using a vacuum fuel pump means you don't need to use vacuum petcock, or if they are separate beasts such that using a vacuum petcock (or any petcock) is necessary no matter if one uses a vacuum fuel pump or not.

I ask because searching through the infamous "Box O'Parts" I got with this scoot, I found the folllowing:



...which is constantly referred to online as a fuel pump, although it has the same marked connections as a vacuum fuel petcock (i.e. vacuum line connection, fuel inlet, fuel outlet).

Further searching lead me to the following discussion on ScootDawg (http://scootdawg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=31209) in which the content of the single post shown there is reprinted below:

I replaced a defective petcock with a Mikuni #DF44-211-D, the standard rectangular
vacuum fuel pump. Not certain why, seemed like a good idea at the time...

I thought that the fuel pump also acted as a petcock, but it doesn't on a gravity feed system.
Went to start my scooter today and it was sitting in a puddle of gas. Tank totally drained.

The hose where it attached to the carb came off and the gas siphoned out overnight by gravity.

For what it is worth...

The Mikuni pump worked very well, but the fuel line still needs a manual or vacuum petcock somewhere.
The pump does not self prime so it must be mounted below the tank.

So if the above is correct, you need a petcock, and if you want to add a fuel pump, that won't mitigate the need for a petcock.

Is that correct?

[Cruiser]

Don't apologize for asking legitimate questions. It's a great opportunity to clear the air of any questions that many other members may have and just haven't asked.

If the fuel tank is above the carb, then you need a petcock. The fuel flows by gravity and does not require a pump. Using a pump in this capacity will allow gas to flow when the engine is not running. If the outlet of the fuel tank is below the carb, then you will need a pump. No petcock is necessary because the gas flows only when the engine is running which activates the pump. Since the outlet is below the carb, there will be no gravity flow. Gas will flow only when the engine is running but will need to be pumped to get to the carb.

I'm assuming the outlet of your fuel tank is above the carb. This would mean you need to use the petcock. The pump is not necessary. In other words, you use one or the other depending how your fuel tank is set up in relation to the carb.

The rectangular device you have pictured is a vacuum pump.

[philosophydoc]

Thanks clearing that up, Cruiser -- my tank is above the carb, so I'll find a place to attach the petcock. The drop off from the tank nipple to the carb is only about two inches, so it may a bit dicey, but I'll manage.

Final thought -- if I were to connect a fuel pump somewhere BELOW the carb (it looks like there are more places to do that without conflicting with other scooter parts) would that work? In other words, mount the pump below the carb, run a line from the tank to the pump, and then from the pump back up to the carb..?

Crossed my multimeter leads (when set to Ohms) and meter reads zero.

Alleyoop, at this point I have two potential places to connect my single remaining vacuum line -- the vacuum fuel petcock, and the as-yet-unnamed black plastic barbed hose connection shown here:



If I connect my remaining vacuum hose here, then I need to find another vacuum line to run to the fuel petcock. Is the hose barb above is what you are you referring when you say it it looks like I found where the hose should go?

No, this wasn't my own stupidity...when I bought the bike it was like this. (Hmm...what's more stupid -- doing this yourself, or BUYING IT already like this!!!!!)

[Cruiser]

You can mount the vacuum fuel valve any place that is convenient as long as it is not above the gas tank outlet. It can be mounted lower than the carb. Do not put a fuel pump in this system.

Here's a short tutorial on the fuel delivery system:

scooterdoc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=intake&action=display&thread=946

The black thingie could be part of the vapor recovery system. There is no hose connection on one of the barbs. Check the last picture here:

scooterdoc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=intake&action=display&thread=842

[Alleyoop]

If that is the only vac line left connect it to the Petcock that is more important than the vapor recovery system. A lot of people just disconnect and plug up all the emission stuff, less problems down the road.
Alleyoop

[philosophydoc]

Thanks Cruiser and Alleyoop...this helps a lot. And sorry I missed the fuel/vac line discussion in the Library, but often when I do a board search that goes back more than 300 days, I get this error:

"This page took too long to generate and has been stopped. A log of this error has been reported to ProBoards Support."

I have searched for fuel and vacuum info, but never found the Library file you pointed me to.

And I had to chuckle at this -- in Bashan's very helpful tutorial, he writes: "The vacuum fuel valve is often mislabeled by sellers as a petcock. A petcock actually fits up into the bottom of the tank."

Just what I need...a THIRD name for it!

I'll start swapping out vac and fuel lines later this week, and see if JR has any advice on what my next step is with the electrical connections.