Here's the results of the marker test you wanted me to do... both looked the same to me:
I like what you're describing about the Koso backing off the RPMs at cruise. My old variator definitely didn't do that with the 13g. Would you say I should have with this variator? With this in mind: 15g = 4800rpm, 13g = 5400rpm, so I'm guessing 11g= 6000rpm?? Should I go LIGHTER than 11g?
Last Edit: Dec 11, 2015 15:49:07 GMT -6 by rosiemoto
Okay I gave in and put in the 13g rollers after realizing today I wasn't able to beat traffic on takeoff anymore. My first impression after putting in the 13g rollers was "it feels sane now." (...referring to the revs not being "lawnmower-like" and bogging the engine at takeoff.). I guess I had my craving for low RPM satisfied... it was great for slow side streets and fuel economy I bet, but really not for the 35-45mph roads I frequently travel on. Here's my results and thoughts:
TOP SPEED COMPARISONS: - Old variator + 13g: 58mph against the wind, 62mph with the wind - Old variator + 15g: same as above ^ - Koso variator + 13g: 58mph against the wind, 61mph with the wind. - Koso variator + 15g: same as above ^
RPMS: - Old variator + 13g: too revvy for me, always between 5k-6k RPM at low speeds; no "shift"; 6100rpm full throttle - Old variator + 15g: much more managed cruising revs below 40mph; had a "shift." still 6100rpm full throttle - Koso variator + 13g: 4200-4500rpm on side streets (I like that). 5400rpm full throttle - Koso variator + 15g: 3500-4000rpm on side streets, boggy takeoff, 4800rpm full throttle
FULL THROTTLE ACCELERATION: Old variator + 13g: Quick takeoff. 0-40mph in 8.45secs Old variator + 15g: Same as above ^ no difference at full throttle. Koso 15g: Weaker acceleration from 0-40; I actually felt the bike start pulling harder after 40mph when the revs started going up. 0-40mph in 10 secs Koso 13g: Acceleration is mostly back. 0-40mph in 9 secs
I'm not really sure what to think at the moment... I'm a bit bummed out that the new variator hasn't increased my top speed at all. It has been a fun experience experimenting with all this though.
Last Edit: Dec 11, 2015 15:28:50 GMT -6 by rosiemoto
Okay so when I feel like playing with it (maybe after a few gas fillups to see if my gas mileage is affected) I'll just put in my old set of 13g rollers and see how that goes. I'm just so surprised how extreme the difference is after I put in the Koso variator, on the same set of rollers. Is it that bigger variators need lighter rollers?
From your heavy acceleration from a stop only getting to 5500 rpms by your tach that tells me the weights are a little on the heavy side.
Today I noticed it was under little under 5k when I gave it full throttle for a few seconds. You know, today when I was riding 10-15mph through a parking lot, I said to myself it sounds awfully like a lawnmower!
It's kinda cool in a couple ways, like some reason I'm relating it to feeling like a dirtbike/supermoto now. I guess it's from the feeling of it being gripped in gear and very little variating, and the low revving engine note makes it seem like a torque monster. But yeah it's giving me the impression it will hate me if I was to give it sudden full throttle from a stop because of such low RPM.
I did a rolling 10-40mph acceleration test and got about 1-1.5secs slower than I normally get. I can feel it's not pulling quite as hard, but it absolutely loves cruising at 45mph (indicated) at 5k RPM! It's only needing very little throttle to cruise it which feels nice; maybe an effect of being at lower RPM? And then add that my musician's ear is causing me to go over the speed limit now because I'm expecting to hear a higher pitch, so when I look down at my speedometer, OOPS I'm going 10+ over! I was wondering why everyone else was driving so slow...
I must say getting 58mph against the wind is DAMN good for a stock 150 motor is this GPS or what the SPEEDO is registering?
It's what the speedo said, so probably more like 53mph. I'm gonna take it on a 50mph road soon to see what it can do in both directions.
You may want to try .5 or 1 full gram lighter weights to get your rpms just a little higher that is of course if you want.
I've got the type of personality that likes to tweak things over and over until I like it, and ending up learning a bit in the process even if I end up right back where I started! Can I mix in my old 13g rollers if needed? (They have slight flat spots on some of them.)
I installed the Koso variator today and have to say BIG difference! Comparison picture:
The Koso very much lowered my RPMs, I couldn't believe it. It feels like it's much more "gripped" onto the gear and not so "revvy." It also does something strange that I didn't expect at all... it takes off soon as I touch the throttle now!? It doesn't bother to rev up to 4k first; it just takes off from idle RPMs soon as I give any gas. Is that normal? Idling at 1500-1900 depending on temp outside.
Video: First start and rev after putting it in. I revved it up slowly up to about 5k or so. I noticed the belt isn't riding all the way up the variator..??
Here's what my "MPH @ RPMs" are now. 23mph cruise - 3500rpm 30mph cruise - 4000rpm 40mph cruise - 5000rpm 50mph cruise - 6000rpm 58mph full throttle - 6900rpm 58mph DEcelerating - 6200mph Medium acceleration from a stop - 5000rpm Heavy acceleration from a stop - 5500rpm
I so far wasn't able to get it past 58mph on the speedometer on my first test ride. Old variator record is 62mph indicated. I'll try it more later on. I was going against the wind.
I know my bike always has like some sort of readjustment thing that lasts a few days after the variator gets touched, so maybe it'll completely change how it acts after a few rides. Like, after I put in my new rollers a few weeks ago, it had a constant RPM, then after a few days it started having that "shift" in RPM shortly after taking off, and stayed that way.
Last Edit: Dec 8, 2015 22:35:06 GMT -6 by rosiemoto
Okay that makes sense. I'll look back through this thread to see if you recommended me a specific variator because I think you might have? If not, could you?
I see modded 50cc scooters that get up to 45 or 50 and I start thinking why does mine only go 10 mph faster top end, when mine accelerates like 2x or 3x faster? I have always felt it has the power to go faster but like it's being held back.
My main motivation is because I'm commonly on the faster streets and cruise 45-55 mph. I want the breathing room to pass cars if I need to. I'm able to keep up at least now though on 50mph streets so I've been pretty excited about that. But then when I'm cruising at 50 @ 30% throttle, it feels like it could go another 15-20mph faster, but the power just quickly ramps off suddenly.
I hit 61 indicated mph against the wind, and then today I rode with the wind and still only got 61 max. Only difference was it got there a but quicker.
Thank you for the info Alleyoop. New question now, may or may not be related...
I'm able to hit 61 (indicated) as a top speed now, but I just was out riding in very windy weather and took it for a top speed test going WITH the wind. It seems to just limit itself around 60. It feels similar to how it was limited to 45 when I had my worn out belt in it. I feel power at 50-55 but soon as the revs get above 7000, it seems to lose power quickly and also makes a loud vibrating sound. The vibrating started when a shop put in a used variator.
If I'm not going with the wind I can still reach 60. That's why it's weird to me that going with strong wind pushing me doesn't make my top speed increase at all. It's like it loses power after 7000 rpm or something?
It's at 7500rpm @ 60mph. Indicated 60 is more like 55 with gps.
Would a performance variator be something I could use now? If you want, I can video demonstrate everything I just said so you can see exactly what I mean.
Living in Florida with it being hot the carbs need to be set on the LEAN side for the motors to run good. Dropping down below 60 degress the motors now need more fuel and need to be richened up. But if the temps are only far and few between you can just live with the poor running at those temps which will not last long. OR richen it up a little maybe 1/4-1/2 turn and have the motor run much better in both extremes. What I really believe is the carb is currently set TOO LEAN in the first place and is why it acts up that way when the temps drop that far. Alleyoop
I think that's true, set too lean. It does give me like 30% chance of a backfire from high revs/speed when I let off the throttle. How would I adjust that? I heard you can just turn the fuel mixture screw on the carb until the RPM reaches its highest point? Does bike need fully warmed up or just until the enricher is done? I notice it has always idled low after the enricher is done, until the bike warms up about 5-10 minutes into the ride, then it returns to where I have it set. If it's colder out, it idles higher too.
trashtruck12172 said: 40f-50f isn't cold. here it can get to -20f/-30f and some folks switch to a lighter weight oil for the winter. you can try a 10w30 and see what happens.
I'm in Florida... 70f is getting cold to me!! When it's in the 50s and especially 40s I'm all bundled up with a big coat, scarf, 2 pairs of gloves... I had a whole family from up north tell me the same thing, "40 isn't cold!!" and now that they've lived here in FL for a few years, they sound like me. So disclaimer, when I say cold, I mean relative to Florida...lol.
Last Edit: Nov 23, 2015 12:58:56 GMT -6 by rosiemoto
Yeah when I said it runs better on full tank, I mean like the throttle response is more linear and more power at lower throttle. It's actually an older video and I've been using ethanol free gas to help stop that problem, but it still does it when my bike isn't fully warmed up. Thank you for the advice.
Could this have anything to do with this: when I first got my bike and went through its first winter, I would let it start and sit until the idle came down... well, when I went to accelerate, it would go NOWHERE. If I gave it like 5% throttle it would do that, and gradually as it warmed up more, it would accept higher and higher throttle from me. But otherwise it would just go back to normal idle even at 100% throttle... it didn't die or stall.
I'm gonna find out soon while it's getting colder out, if my bike still does this in the cold. (40f-50f)
Heavy acceleration didn't really change RPM but I remember it still pulling strong even at 4k RPM, like high torque? It had a very obvious RPM shift around 15mph, and after that shift, it was almost like it was stuck in gear and would change revs only according to mph, not throttle.
That is the way a well tuned CVT and motor should work. You crank the throttle and it should rev up to around 6K and hold. All this time it is accelerating and when it gets to around 40mph the belt has now reached the max on the pulley. Once this happens(NOW REMEMBER YOU STILL HAVE THE THROTTLE WIDE OPEN) the motor now starts to build more rpms and as the RPMS are climbing you are gaining more speed.
You can test this out and find out if you have your CVT and motor tuned right. If your RPMS climb and drop and climb and drop YOUR WEIGHTS are to heavy. If on the other hand your RPMS CLIMB really high right away then YOUR WEIGHTS are to light. Alleyoop
What do you think caused my bike to act that way when it was new/stock? I mean that shift at 15mph and no increase of RPM with throttle. Did it just come with crazy heavy rollers, or what do you think? It doesn't do that now, but I'm just super curious why my bike's variator acted so different to others when I first got it.
Thank you for all the information. Well written and informative. I would think you could be a quality assurance technician in life. As I have said I'm currently investigating the purchase of a scooter at this time. Even trying to decide on which size I should start with. Thanks again, Richard
P.S. I will consider this report a birthday present. At 3:33am Monday I turn 66.
Awesome, I'm glad you found it helpful! Would this be your first bike? Me personally, I don't think I could handle a 50cc scooter. When I see those people on their 50cc scooters holding up a line of traffic and going 10 under the limit, I just think how lucky I was to end up with something faster. You probably need the motorcycle endorsement before you can ride a faster scooter I guess depending on your area.
Here's a video of mine that might give you an idea of what to expect from a 150cc scooter on 40-45mph roads, although this video was made before I did my belt and rollers, so it's a bit quicker at those higher speeds now. This is the same bike I started with 5 years ago and has been my main and only vehicle. For the first year I never took it over 25 and rode it "like a Grandma", so it's easy to go slow speeds as well. Then, whenever you feel you want to go faster, it's there! Just my opinion.
Also on the weights 13 to 15 your rpms changed from 1000+ lower. You cannot depend on your ears unless you are very familiar with motors and their sounds. You should get a tach which will help you tune your cvt and motor where you want it.
Thank you, I can really use those! I do have a tach by the way.
Here's my results of everything I've done in this thread, compared before and after in 5mph increments. The MPH/RPM charts are all at cruising speed (holding speed, not accelerating etc). I wasn't able to get all the different speeds from before unfortunately, so there's some gaps, but I think it still shows the differences! I've done a side by side comparison as well halfway down. Thank you to everyone in this thread for all your help, my scooter feels much happier now at all speeds!
New belt & new rollers (15g)
MPH
RPM
25
4200
30
4500
35
5000
40
5300
45
5900
50
6200
55
6800
Thoughts: It's definitely not revving so high and sounds much happier when cruising on side streets. The 2g heavier rollers seemed to lower my RPM by 500-800 all around.
New belt & old rollers (13g)
MPH
RPM
25
5000
30
5400
40
5700
45
6200
50
7000
Thoughts: The new belt didn't seem to make much if any difference at low speed, but once I got over 40mph there was a huge difference in power! Old belt lacked power after 40mph.
Old belt & old rollers (13g)
MPH
RPM
25
5000
35
5700
40
6000
47
7200
60
8000
Thoughts: The old belt was limiting my top speed to 47mph, maybe 50 when lucky, but I once hit 60 shortly before making this thread, SOMEHOW, and RPM was at redline!
Here's a side by side comparison from old belt + old rollers to new belt + new rollers. Entries with a ? are guess/estimation.
MPH
RPM Old
RPM New
25
5000
4200
35
5700
5000
40
6000
5300
55
7700?
6800
60
8000
7100?
One more thing; RPMs WHEN ACCELERATING at low speed, with new belt + new rollers:
Throttle amount
RPMs
Light (20%)
4800
Light-Medium (35%)
5200
Medium (50%)
5500
Heavy (80%)
5800
WOT (100%)
6000
Thoughts: Not much change at medium to heavy throttle compared to old belt and rollers, but now the lighter throttle doesn't rev it so high which I like! More dynamic.
FINAL THOUGHTS:
- New belt (old belt was going on 6years) and heavier rollers gave me lowered RPM across the whole range. No loss in acceleration from 0-40mph; side by side videos of me doing 0-40 show I get a slightly faster time now. I actually did 85-90% throttle and still beat my old record.
- It still holds constant RPM and doesn't "shift."
- My bike is getting up to speed with much less effort; Light-medium (35%) throttle took me over 40mph from a stoplight, totally surprised me!
- The lowered RPM makes me not realize how fast I'm actually going; I keep finding myself going 10 over.
- I'm considering going to 16-17g rollers later on, since the RPMs aren't quite as low as I hoped. I'd like to match how my bike was when it was stock/new... back then it hovered around 4000 RPM on side streets, and heavy acceleration didn't really change RPM but I remember it still pulling strong even at 4k RPM, like high torque? It had a very obvious RPM shift around 15mph, and after that shift, it was almost like it was stuck in gear and would change revs only according to mph, not throttle. It had such a personality that way, but a shop told me something in the variator was malfunctioning. Or, was it just too heavy rollers? I liked it that way... oh well.
My scooter feels pretty happy now overall.
Last Edit: Nov 21, 2015 16:31:58 GMT -6 by rosiemoto
Just got the new rollers in! I cleaned out the whole variator with soap and water, dried, then I put in 15g rollers, which is 2 grams heavier than the original 13g. I took a test ride and the difference is a little more subtle than I was hoping for, lowered maybe 300 RPM I'm guessing, but not sure. I was expecting 1,000 RPM difference... I'll ride again tomorrow, record and compare all the results from before everything to now, and post it for anyone curious!
Out of all this, I managed to lose 2 or 3 CVT case screws. Is there a new set of them I can just order? The ones that are in right now are all varying lengths...so confusing!
