Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 16, 2012 21:25:11 GMT -6
alright, here it is. I apologize for the nearly useless video quality, but perhaps my description will help flesh it out.
I wanted to see what the spark was like with compression in the cylinder, so I left one spark plug in the hole and the other I stuck in the boot and laid on the valve cover. The plug showed a rapid blue spark without any discernible misses. I tried this with the plugs contacting in series, and there was still a spark in the gap of the visible spark plug.
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 16, 2012 20:40:49 GMT -6
BIG NEWS.
It runs, but very reluctantly. I had to bring out the 500A portable jump-starter from the car and connect that to the battery before the starter could kick the thing fast enough to start, but it started. The thing is, it won't idle. I took some videos, maybe they can make things clearer:
And a second start:
What do you think? How can I make it idle?
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 16, 2012 6:53:12 GMT -6
I think I've got a lead. I just realized a couple things--
1. My spark plug tests are done with the plug out of the cylinder, and because I don't have a second plug, there is no compression 2. The starter motor can spin the magneto much more quickly without compression, giving what appears to be a strong spark 3. When starting, everything is much slower, the spark will be much weaker 4. This normally would be compensated for by the battery at low engine speeds 4a. the battery is mounted (and grounded) in the frame which acquires electrical continuity with the engine through the swing bearings and the shock absorber
5. I disconnected the engine from the frame because of clearance issues and never reconnected it.
Right now the spark is running solely on the magneto, which at the low engine speeds during starting, would not be able to produce sufficient spark unaided by the battery. I suspect that when I bolt the scooter back together I'll get it to start.
What do you think? Is that a "that'd do it"?
*edit* wait a minute, no...if the engine doesn't have a ground to the battery, how could the starter possibly be spinning? damn, that must not be it...
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 15, 2012 19:08:03 GMT -6
Well, a few things have happened. I tried wiggling the boot, nothing. I tried measuring how far into the cylinder the plug was projecting--it seems that the threads in the head are the same length as the threads on the plug, and the end of the plug is projecting into the cylinder.
I was about to pull off the cylinder and start installing the old one when I decided I'd try shooting starter fluid or gas straight into the intake port. I removed the intake manifold and shot some starter fluid straight in, and although I didn't hear a "bang" or anything of that sort, the engine sped up to probably 1.5x the speed the starter motor can spin it. I was able to get this to happen with gasoline from a squirt bottle, too.
I also noticed something else--I'd lean on the starter and squirt a bunch of gasoline into the intake port, and the engine would go slow-fast-slow as (I guess) it went from flooded to ok to lean. so that might have been some weak firing, but at no point was it strong enough to keep the engine going without the starter.
Might it be fuel then, after all? Maybe the compression is low despite the rough test I've tried? SHould I get a compression gauge?
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 15, 2012 13:09:21 GMT -6
I think that might just be the design of the head. When I seat the boot I feel three good clicks, and it feels the same as when I seat it on the plug outside the head to test for spark.
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 15, 2012 10:31:55 GMT -6
Well, that's very interesting. How could that happen, and what was your solution? In other news, I was sent some literature by the guy who sold me the BBK that quoted a 0.01" valve gap. Tried that this morning, no help. Here's a picture of the engine bay and the hoses, as Alleyoop requested:
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 14, 2012 21:17:21 GMT -6
Here's a question in the meantime--I had the carb off while I was putting the new cylinder on, and had a look at it. It seems to have a butterfly valve at the narrow opening, and in the middle something like a slide valve. i've had some Japanese motorcycle carbs apart, and they use a slide valve coupled to the needle exclusively. What role does the slide valve kind of thing in the qmb139 carb play? Also, it doesn't seem to move in response to the throttle, is it normal for that to feel limp?
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 14, 2012 20:44:59 GMT -6
Well, I've already drilled out the plug and tried the screw at 2, 1.5 and 1 rotations out from all the way in. Nothing there, even with lots of cranking from a freshly charged battery, probably half again as fast as it was in the video. I'll give the lots-of-air tack a shot tomorrow.
I double-checked the spark plug yet again, and I can definitely say there isn't a problem. Held against the cover it gives good blue (almost white) sparks, and held a couple inches from the cover, it actually arcs all the way to it. That's a good spark.
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 14, 2012 20:05:34 GMT -6
The spark was strong and blue when I tested the plug out of the motor. I went out there with a multimeter and tested for continuity between the positive pole of the plug and the head, just in case it was shorting, and that checked out. I don't know, it seems like it should be sparking in there, no?
I'm not in front of the scooter at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the valve cover breather hose has a way to vent. It connects off to the left in that video to the air filter.
It seems like it has no good reason not to run, doesn't it?? Could it be that the fuel mixture was thrown off when I replaced the main jet?]]
*edit* oh, didn't see that last bit. Alright, I'll play with the mixture. Looks like I'll have to remove some sort of cover from over the mixture screw--is there a safe way to do that?
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 14, 2012 19:26:47 GMT -6
oh, I've tried it every which way. Gas on the vacuum port, plugged vacuum port, throttle open a little, open a lot, everything.
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 14, 2012 18:19:20 GMT -6
Here's your video:
I spoke to the fellow who sold me the big bore kit, and he's using the autolite equivalent of the same plug I've got in there, the ngk C7HSA that the engine manual specifies, gapped to 0.025".
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 13, 2012 19:51:43 GMT -6
You know, I'm thinking of just reinstalling the old cylinder and trying to cut my losses. Maybe 50cc to 100cc is a bit much, anyway....
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 13, 2012 18:49:15 GMT -6
Also to check that you can take the Air Filter off and put your hand over the carb and crank it IF you get air hitting your hand the intake is open on the EXHAUST STROKE. Alleyoop THe mystery continues. I reversed the cam sprocke 180. I did the straw trick and watched very carefully what was happening while I slowly turned the engine--piston comes up, piston goes down, exhaust valve opens, piston goes up, exhaust valve closes and fuel valve opens, piston goes down, repeat. your standard four-cycle motor doing its thing, except this one is still not igniting. I went through and triple-checked the basics. The spark plug gets wet, so there's fuel. A finger over the spark plug hole shows that there's a fair amount of compression. There's spark. The timing checks out. I've tried adding fuel through the vacuum port, as well as starter fluid. Nothing. I think it might have possibly turned over a bit faster at one point, but that might just be wishful thinking.
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 12, 2012 19:32:55 GMT -6
The Plug are you sure it is the RIGHT LENGTH Some are shorter than others and they will NOT Stick out of the head and ground out on the head. WOW!! Ok one more test take the plug out and put a straw in the hole and turn the motor over by hand slowly and watch the straw and see when the straw comes out, you will probably need to do this a couple of times because on one of those strokes it is the compression and one on the EXHAUST stroke. And just about when it starts back down again CHECK the VALVES with your FINGERS and SEE if you can wiggle them and at that point the CAM should be aligned and the pointer on the flywheel should be pretty close to the "T" mark. If the HOLES on the cam are not visible at this point it is on the wrong stroke. Alleyoop Sounds like a plan. I'll be giving it a try tomorrow after work, but in the meantime a question--wouldn't it be ok if the sprocket were 180 degrees off? I'd think (based on limited knowledge) that it would still run, it would just be one revolution off from where it would have been otherwise--running a bit later in the cycle, so to speak. I say this because I actually had it with the sprocket 180 off from where it is now, and reversing it didn't help. After I reversed it I spun the motor a few times with my hand and found that the sprocket was back to right-side up with the flywheel at TDC due to a 2:1 gearing between the cam sprocket and the crankshaft. If I reverse it again, wouldn't it be equivalent to spinning the crankshaft once?
|
|
Clinician
Currently Offline
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Joined: Nov 2, 2012 15:50:50 GMT -6
|
Post by mossy173 on Nov 12, 2012 18:56:14 GMT -6
Well then I would have to say YOUR NOT GETTING SPARK or you do not have COMPRESSION. Especially if the SPARK PLUG IS WET. Are you sure you have a GROUND WIRE FROM the FRAME to the MOTOR? If no ground wire The Spark Plug will NOT FIRE while on the motor. Also the COMPRESSION you said you tested using the Finger Trick. When you did this DID you hold the THROTTLE WIDE OPEN and did it FORCE YOUR FINGER OFF THE HOLE? If you just felt pressure that would NOT be enough Compression for the motor to run. Alleyoop Sure, the ground wire is connected to one of the head cover bolts. I checked the spark again while I was advancing the timing just to be sure, and it's still nice and strong and blue. If I get a spark with the plug pulled against the cover, it should still be sparking inside the cylinder, right? When I did the finger compression trick I did it with the throttle wide open and it blew my finger right off the hole, no matter how hard I pushed. It's a real puzzler!
|
|