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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 24, 2014 17:20:56 GMT -6
@ drahken - With all due respect, I actually did not ask how a CVT works. I asked to have explained how mixing weights works. I have spent a significant amount of time reading over the responses generated. My mind works differently than most, but now that I understand the concept, I was able to understand that you were saying the same thing, only in a different way. Everyone's mind is wired differently (especially mine, I'm quite sure) and, through no fault of yours, I was not able to grasp what you were saying. I don't want you to think I was slamming you. It was my comprehension issue and your theoretically accurate explanation became clear once my light came on. I appreciate your input.
@ ALL - So, if my rpm drop on takeoff, lag on acceleration, and fall off significantly on hills, (if I get this), my OVERALL weight is too light AND my contra spring is too weak. Have I got it?
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Clinician
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 23, 2014 23:46:52 GMT -6
the whole weight pushing on the outside of the variator when it reaches a certain amount of force overcomes the contra spring in the rear driven pulley of your cvt. if all the roller weights where one gigantic block. and you cut off a slice. its like instead of 6 x6 grams 36grams in your variator. itd be like 3x6 3x7 6.5 x 6 39grams... did i add that right? see the rear driven pulley in the cvt is using the contra spring to keep the belt from going down in the back. and its going to take so much force. if you took it off and wrapped the belt around the driven pulley maybe.. like, nailed it to the wall, and then grabbed the belt and pulled it to the bottom of the driven pulley thing. if you where to take a scale. it would take. so many ft lbs. the front shifts it by the roller weights in that variator with the ramps. the centrifical force, when it spins, adds up to ft/lbs. of troque. when you get up to your driven pulleys give point, the freaking variator shifts, and off you go into 2nd gear. ive mixed max for me 7 gram and 5 grams roller weights. that much of a difference. see if youy took and pulled the belt to the bottom of the driven pulley. and used a scale, and figured it took 50ft /lbs, a random number, ok. so no matter wht it takes 50 ft/lbs until the spring in the back starts to wear and become weaker. so it doesnt matter if you pull the belt by hand, at 25ft/lbs and someone else you get to help you does it too, at 25ft/lbs. the freaking driven pulley is going to be shifted. if you do it yourself its the same. so it doesnt matter. Whatever you been smoking, keep it away from me. I'd be very concerned with whoever can make sense of this. I am quite certain you understand what you are saying, but, for goodness sake, who slices weights? Until someone I trust tells me differently, I will continue to believe that the heavier weights will react first, then strain to overcome the contra spring until the rpm increase enough to let the lighter weights help. No matter how you slice it (lol), it will always be 6 of the same weight and it will always be a tightrope compromise. Thankfully, I have been around long enough to know who I trust. Thumbs up, gang. Thanks! |
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Clinician
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 23, 2014 8:28:59 GMT -6
Rich, I must be missing something about the weights. A certain weight will move outward at a certain RPM. Seemingly, a 14g weight will move outward at lower RPM than a 10g weight. Conversely, the lighter weight will drop sooner as RPM drop. I am just failing to grasp how this mixing of weights creates an average. On acceleration, it will act like the large weight roller as they will spin out before the lighter rollers. It also seems that the lighter rollers would drop down sooner as RPM decrease, leaving 3 heavier rollers taking all the load and pressure. Unless I am failing to grasp a basic concept, the only time these 2 different weights would share a common variator position is either at rest or once the RPM rise to the point that the lighter weight rollers RPM is reached to allow them to 'catch up' with the heavier weights that were pushed out sooner. Again, not seeing how this is an average, other than adding total weight and dividing by 6. I would expect the variator to react to whichever weight would react first. Even if the 3 heavier weights were not enough to force the variator together as soon as 6 heavier weights, the 3 lighter weights could not help until high enough RPM are reached to push them outward. What am I missing?
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Clinician
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 23, 2014 5:27:37 GMT -6
After reading a year old thread started by crazieness, I have decided that my local unarmed bandit, upon selling me the ONLY weight rollers they carry, sold me rollers WAY too heavy for my bike. She couldn't even tell me what the weight was on them, but mine were toast, so I didn't have an option to stay afloat. The question I want to ask in regards to crazieness' thread is this - does mixing weights really work this way? It seems to me that if I mix 3 lighter weights with 3 heavier weights, the 3 heavier weights will still push the variator together at the same time that 6 heavier ones would. What is the point of the lighter weights if this is the case? I recall reading somewhere a while back (probably a different, no longer consulted forum) that mixing weights does not work. Can someone (Alley - hint, hint) please explain the theory on this? Next concept question concerns drive belts. Am I understanding correctly when I think that the only difference in the 842 vs the 835 is slightly better low end AND top end? It seems to me that the shorter belt will not settle all the way down into the bottom of the variator at low end and the same in the drive clutch at top end. With respect to the belt exclusively, won't the 842 give slightly better low end and top end performance? Last question, as I don't want to overload one thread with too many questions at once - am I correct in starting with the CVT system to begin to increase my performance? I realize that this could be a matter of opinion for some, but if my tranny isn't delivering all my engine has, it's pointless to start anywhere but there. If this theory is incorrect, please, feel free to assault me verbally (nudge, nudge @ guitarman! : and set me straight. Along these same lines, it would make sense to do the exhaust system next. Basically, leave the engine alone until I have done all I can to deliver everything it can give - i.e. air intake, exhaust, CVT, fuel delivery, etc. before diving into electrical, i.e. plug, coil, CDI, regulator, and THEN go for the engine with valves, cam, carb and intake, and after ALL that, then look at BBK. Does this concept seem sound? If I have the right idea, is there a better order? It sure feels good to ask questions about improvements over repairs. All input is welcome. Okay, I lied. I have to ask one final question - is there any significant or specific differences between a generic QMJ157 and my BN QMJ157? I have a ZNEN 150T-9.
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Clinician
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I sure miss my Peace Sports 150. Hope the A**HOLE that stole it is enjoying it as much as I did!
Posts: 47
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Joined: Mar 12, 2014 3:17:27 GMT -6
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 22, 2014 19:34:17 GMT -6
Final note to Rich - the deal with it being warm is simple. It's dialed in so good right now that a bump will start it. As can be seen in my video, it almost invariably grabbed for a few revolutions when first engaged. When either the weather or the bike was warm, that quick engagement would be enough to get it started. It was not making any difference in the way the clutch was slipping, just how easily the bike started.
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Clinician
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 20, 2014 8:27:14 GMT -6
Hey Rich. I sure wish I wasn't too busy putting it back together to have read your post. Gotta take 'er apart again as I reinstalled that same washer. There is no way in H*LL I'm putting back together wrong after all I have been through this weekend!!! It did start and perform normally, but I have the correct washer and no fire will see that cylinder until I have it right. As I said early on in this thread, you guys have never let me down. There is all kinds of hinckey stuff going on with this bike. So many things point to it being new in 2011 while there are many others that point to it being 'refurbished'. I think I'd be totally lost without you guys. As a general note, and specifically for JCT, I meant nothing by the earlier post about the brake lever. I truly am grateful that someone takes the time to point out what may be obvious to some but not everyone. As I said earlier, Sometimes we can not see the forest for the trees, so it helps to be reminded of the simple things. I can't count how many times I have overlooked something simple and overanalyzed a problem when it was staring me in the face all along. Occam's Razor is a good thing to keep in mind at times like these. "when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better." So, I sincerely thank each and every one of you that took your time to read and respond. Also thanks to those that read and chose not to respond. I'm confident that if you had encountered this in your experience, you would have offered suggestions as well. If not, then I hope you gleaned something from my experience.
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Clinician
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 19, 2014 11:28:51 GMT -6
 Guess this clears that up. Something tells me this is supposed to be one piece, not 2 like mine. |
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 19, 2014 9:21:25 GMT -6
This is a pic showing the bolts that do not line up.  Here is a short vid showing how much play is in the oil pump drive chain as well. |
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Clinician
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 19, 2014 8:54:46 GMT -6
This is a quick video of what is happening. The scoot is cold. And here -  - is a pic of the starter gear washer. As you can see, there is no bevel. |
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Clinician
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 19, 2014 4:28:34 GMT -6
WHOA!!! I was just reviewing your post with the photo of the the starter gear assembly. Your in-pic notes say that the clutch is held in by 3 bolts. Apparently, another dis-assembly is required as I recall seeing no bolts in those 3 holes. As a matter of fact, I noted at one point that there was a misalignment in those holes. That is to say, there seems to be 3 pieces with holes, the starter gear, a steel colored piece that covered about half the hole, and another hole in back that seemed to line up with the starter gear hole, but not positive of this. More on this once I get it apart. I will attempt to post images to show what I am describing. One other question while I have your attention. How much slop should there be in the oil pump drive chain? There seems to be a significant amount in mine.
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Clinician
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 19, 2014 4:19:17 GMT -6
I was not able to remove the nut from the starter clutch assembly. I was unable to locate a spanner wrench. I tried the 'pound off' method to no avail. I am aware it is a left hand thread. I started with a stout screwdriver and a claw hammer and got no results getting it to budge all the way up to a 4# hand sledge and a 30" crowbar. It actually dented the crowbar tip. Even heat did no good. There is no performance CDI, I haven't gotten that far yet. I observed the starter gear on every attempt until the cover went on, then observed the flywheel. When it makes the grinding noise, the crank is not turning. Also, when the cover went back on, it slid easily on all the way with no binding or coaxing required, so the idler gear pin is going into the cover properly. Another thing of note. When it has trouble engaging, it usually will turn properly when first engaged. That is to say, quick bumps will spin the crank, but prolonged spinning will produce the grinding sound.The next thing I want to try is to loosen the cover and see if there is any play in the mount position. Perhaps there was a slight miscasting or variance in drilling of the mount holes and rather than letting it seat where it seats, I can position it slightly different, IF there is any side to side or up and down play in the cover mount position. As you can see, I am grasping at straws here. It does seem obvious that with the onset of the cooler weather, this is going to continue to be an issue until I can resolve it, as it will start fine once warmed up. The fact that it starts in a bump when warm tells me that I have no major issues other than resolving this misalignment.
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Clinician
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 18, 2014 17:56:00 GMT -6
Yes, that appears to be the issue. A couple other things, once it gets warmed up, it starts in a bump, so I can't tell if it does it warm or not (our weather in NC is getting cooler at night now, in the past week as a matter of fact). Second, the starter seems to have trouble getting it up to and past TDC on the compression stroke. Valves were adjusted at .005 intake and .006 exhaust until I read the "Ignition Switch?" thread, so I reset to .004 for both. When disassembled, there is no play at all by hand in the crank on either side.
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Clinician
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I sure miss my Peace Sports 150. Hope the A**HOLE that stole it is enjoying it as much as I did!
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Joined: Mar 12, 2014 3:17:27 GMT -6
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 18, 2014 15:22:20 GMT -6
Well, I got everything dissected and inspected. All is well with the starter clutch. Upon reassembly, I decided to check operation as each piece was installed. With starter clutch on and starter gear on, it cranked fine. The only way to duplicate the symptom was when I allowed the starter gear to misalign. As long as the starter gear remained in the proper alignment and position, all was well. Next came putting the cover back on. I placed all the bolts into the cover finger tight and, again, all went well. Next, I torqued them down with the same result. Next, test point was after the flywheel install - good again with flywheel on shaft. Next, I torqued down the flywheel nut and BAM! The noise and no engagement were back. Over to the other side to disassemble the CVT. Took everything off and once again loosened the flywheel nut to finger tight. Good engagement. Torque down flywheel nut, some erratic engagement, but mostly grinding. Loosened flywheel nut completely, reassembled CVT and tried again. With just variator torqued on and flywheel nut loose, good engagement. Same when entire CVT reassembled road ready. Good engagement. Now, as long as I don't let the impact go wild, I get mostly good engagement with occasional grinding. Still not 100%, but can get back on the road at least. Have some torque and plenty of loctite on the flywheel nut. We'll see what happens. Again, any ideas would be welcomed.
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Clinician
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I sure miss my Peace Sports 150. Hope the A**HOLE that stole it is enjoying it as much as I did!
Posts: 47
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Joined: Mar 12, 2014 3:17:27 GMT -6
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 18, 2014 4:15:22 GMT -6
@jct - My first reaction when I read your post was DUHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Then I realized that all of you that are trying to help have no idea what us helpseekers level of knowledge is, so I say THANK YOU to you for your reminder. Even the most knowledgeable among us can forget the simple things sometimes. I am not being sarcastic at all. Your reminder is appreciated. Just to be clear, when the starter is mechanically disconnected, it spins freely when the start button is depressed. This is why I am now starting to believe that something is amiss inside the CVT cover. I did nothing to the flywheel side until this problem arose. The only thing I found inside the CVT cover when I initially cracked it was that the rollers had not been rolling. Every one had a flat spot with most of them almost through the material to the center metal base. The belt shows signs of excessive wear for just over 3000 miles when compared to a new one. Again, I am hoping to get an understanding of what happens mechanically when the start button is pushed. Is the starter shaft horizontally stationary? Both the original and replacement starter have a small amount of in and out play in the gear shaft, but does not appear to be enough to disengage from the corresponding gear. Is there horizontal motion to the starter gear or is it stationary side to side? Do all the gears stay in contact during engine operation? As far as I can deduce, all the gears are supposed to be horizontally stationary. The starter turns the small gear assembly which turns the large gear on the crankshaft. After running, the starter clutch allows the crank to turn with out turning the small gear and therefore the starter. At this point, I am of the opinion that the flywheel side has to be removed again and the starter clutch removed for a thorough inspection. Although it seemed to turn the engine when turned by hand, it seems possible that the clutch bearings could be bad to the point that the high torque supplied by the starter to turn the starter clutch may be too much for a bad clutch assembly causing the grinding noise as the the starter clutch cannot keep a grip on the crankshaft. How does this sound? Feasible?
One other side note just to back up the quality questions regarding Chinese scooters - when performing the electrical checks, I unplugged the solenoid connector to test the starter button. When I went to reconnect the plug, I found that the R/Y and G/Y wires were reversed on opposite sides of the connector. That is, the plug connected the G/Y to the R/Y and vice versa. Apparently, this was not an issue, as the scoot started and ran fine for a week, but I corrected it nonetheless.
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Clinician
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Posts: 47
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Joined: Mar 12, 2014 3:17:27 GMT -6
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Post by mcgyvre on Oct 18, 2014 3:24:07 GMT -6
Thanks for the attention Oop. I did jump them with the same results as using the button - grinding noise. There is no difference. Although I did not outline every step, I did go through your entire procedure to ensure the electrical system was not the issue. I read the entire "Ignition Switch?" thread and when I saw that you were advising him to ensure a good ground to both frame and engine, I got to thinking. As I recently checked and set the valves, it occurred to me that I did not see a grounding wire attached to the valve cover. I checked and traced the ground connection from the battery, and as it turns out, the ONLY ground connection runs from the battery through a connector (along side the positive wire into the same connector - the connector is such that, if unplugged, one could literally lift the battery out with the cables still attached) directly to one of the 2 starter mount bolts. I know a bit of the history of this bike, enough to know the previous owner had NO knowledge whatsoever about ANYTHING it takes to keep a Chinese scooter running and probably did not ever do anything except put gas in it. The wiring looks original to an extent, but there are some oddities in how some things look, but it's hard to say. I do know that it was purchased from Bandit in Eugene, OR which does not have good reviews regarding prep work.
But I digress. Other information that may be of interest in figuring this out is that I have been into the CVT cover a couple of times. Is there something on this side of the engine that could be causing something to bind up? I am leaning toward this entire issue being something mechanical, as these symptoms did not exhibit until after I cracked the CVT cover and I have done all the electrical checks I have found here.
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and set me straight. Along these same lines, it would make sense to do the exhaust system next. Basically, leave the engine alone until I have done all I can to deliver everything it can give - i.e. air intake, exhaust, CVT, fuel delivery, etc. before diving into electrical, i.e. plug, coil, CDI, regulator, and THEN go for the engine with valves, cam, carb and intake, and after ALL that, then look at BBK. Does this concept seem sound? If I have the right idea, is there a better order? It sure feels good to ask questions about improvements over repairs. All input is welcome. Okay, I lied. I have to ask one final question - is there any significant or specific differences between a generic QMJ157 and my BN QMJ157? I have a ZNEN 150T-9.