2016: Year of Electrical Strikes! By jomama0867 (Read 1,158 times)

[jomama0867]

It's beginning to look like 2016 will be the year electricity fights back! O.K., I'm going through the motions of starting the scooter, when I notice the dash lights are dimmer than normal. Not drastic, since it's been over a month and a half since I've even thought about charging the battery (L.E.D.'s are definitely the way to go), so I check the charge . . . still fully charged (13.45 DCV)! To make a looong story shorter, I seem to have a short (or drain) somewhere.

The scoot kick-starts fine, and runs normally (electrical systems included), so I'm leaning towards the fact that rear-end systems (CDI, stator, coil, R/R, etc.) are functioning normal, but the only thing that DOESN'T  work is the horn (when I hit the switch, my dash goes dead . . . running or not)! It doesn't blow the fuse (which is confusing), but it doesn't work either.

So, O Mighty Gurus, what do you think? Bad switch? Bad ground (which would be strange to me if it would only affect the horn)? It's still operational, but I'm not a big fan of HAVING to kick start a scooter to get it started (doesn't make you look "cool", it makes you look dumb (er)!

2013 Taotao ATM150-A "EVO"

[trashtruck12172]

might be a bad ground somewhere. if the horn is the only thing that doesn't work, why kick start? does the starter not work?

[Alleyoop]

Sounds like a bad battery to me, and when a load is put on it it drops like a rock. The horn takes a lot of juice just like a toaster does, so when you push the button it is taking all the juice available from the battery and everything else goes to sleep
Seeing as how you have left it sitting for over a month which any scooter battery will drain during that time even a cars battery will drain.

So put it on charge for at least 6 hours or just leave it overnight take a nap and call me in morning when it will be FULLY CHARGED If the battery is good it will start your scoot using the electric start.

If it still does not start your scoot then you will know for sure you have at least 1 bad cell in that battery and its time for a new battery.
Alleyoop

[jomama0867]

I guess I disclosed some confusing information . . . this is a DAILY RIDER! I haven't NEEDED to charge the battery since switching the lighting system to ALL L.E.D.'s (I check the voltage fairly regularly with my multi-meter, and it's been charging perfectly)! Still, I'm not disputing that it could be a bad battery. After a little more diagnostics, I haven't narrowed my search parameters at all. Here's what I've tried:

By-passing the ignition switch; no change.  By-passing the brake switches; no change.  Disconnecting the horn wiring completely; no change.  However, when I hook up a "manual" battery charger, I get normal electrics, but the starter (or solenoid) clicks when trying to start.  Tried to "jump" the solenoid, and got NOTHING (maybe the problem?) I get sparks across the terminals, but no start (or sounds).  Also when I turn on the ignition switch, the battery voltage drops from 12.5 to 6.0 VDC immediately (even when by-passing the switch and jumping the connection at the junction)! BEFORE turning "on" the kill switch!

Any ideas . . . Alley . . . ANYONE?

[Alleyoop]

Now that is a different story. Ok check the GROUND WIRE FROM THE MOTOR TO THE FRAME, a good place to ground the motor is on one of the VALVE cover bolts. Also make sure the NEGATIVE Battery POST has a good FRAME GROUND. Now NORMALLY if the SOLENOID CLICKS means it is bad and to verify you jump the TERMINALS on the Solenoid. But you say jumping the terminals on the solenoid does nothing but sparks which means it is getting juice from the battery. SO make sure the other cable on the SOLENOID goes to the STARTER and it has a good connection there.

So now it may be a BAD STARTER, you can test it by jumping it with a car, Hook up the positive to the terminal on the STARTER and with the NEGATIVE CABLE IN YOUR HAND just touch the frame or motor and it should spin the starter.
Alleyoop

[jomama0867]

Thank you Alley! Everything you suggested makes perfect sense to me . . . especially the original post about a bad battery! You see, I have a terrible habit of OVER-THINKING problems like these instead of checking the obvious solutions first. That said, I'm going to have the battery tested first thing in the morning! At least I can eliminate that particular component (if nothing else), and there's a good chance that could be the culprit! I have had batteries go "bad" before out of nowhere, and this one was "cheap" in the first place. If that's not it, I'll try your other suggestions.

I will let you know how this turns out. Maybe 2016 won't be the year electricity disappeared!

[cyborg]

Sounds like a ground to me

[jomama0867]

Update: The battery tested good. It needs to be fully charged (obviously), but has no apparent faulty cells. I also agree that a ground short is probably a good place to start. The wiring on this seems to me to be sketchy at best anyway. Every light bulb (including the ones on the "dash") has it's own ground, and ALL of these tie into one common ground. Needless to say the point of connection is a rat's nest of converging green wires, and I don't know why they think that sending 10-12 12 guage wires into one 12 guage wire would be successful anyway! I have had headlight issues before and resolved them by running a separate ground directly to the frame (under the cowling). I'm considering replacing the "common" ground with one of a higher guage (if nothing else than to try to get better connection from the 8-10 wires that tie into it). The battery still shows to be charging when running, which would seem to rule out a stator/rectifier problem, correct?

[trashtruck12172]

just like a car, you can never have too many grounds.

[Alleyoop]

If it is charging then all is working, R/R and STATOR and it runs so the CDI and COIL is all peachy keen.
But Like I said check the STARTER it appears to be the cause of no electric starts. It appears to be dead. Kick starters are for emergency use only they are not made to withstand constant use.
Alleyoop

[jomama0867]

Further Update: Yup, Starter! I hooked it up to my neighbor's car battery and . . . nothing! I removed it and opened it up, thinking I might be able to spot the problem. After performing all of the tests (that I could find on-line), everything seemed to check out O.K., but when I hooked it up directly to my now-fully-charged battery (13.42 VDC at rest), NOTHING from the starter, and the battery charge dropped to almost nothing (it recovered as soon as I disconnected it, and seems to perform fine with all of the other electrics)!

I was eventually going to order a high torque starter for my BBK engine I'm building, so I just ordered it a little sooner than I expected . . no real loss other than kick-starting my only form of transportation for the next few more days.

Which brings me to my next question; I plan to re-install the "bad" starter to fill the "hole" in the crankcase to be able to still run the scooter, BUT I don't really want to necessarily connect it to the electrical system the way it is. Is there a way to safely protect the exposed starter connection (disconnecting . . . whatever) so I don't blow my wiring harness completely? Maybe disconnect the solenoid at the battery so that part of the system won't have any power? My plan is to try not to have to run it, but the new starter won't get here until Wed. or Thur., and if a situation comes up I need to be able to use it without doing any more damage than necessary. Any ideas would be helpful, and THANX TO ALL for the assistance in getting me this far!

[Alleyoop]

TO make is easy just take the thick RED WIRE off the POSITIVE terminal on the battery and put that aside and leave the solenod connected. This way when you get your new starter you just connect that and re-connect the RED THICK wire to the battery and your good to go.
Alleyoop

[jomama0867]

Many thanks, Alley! I was actually debating on even posting the question, thinking that was the obvious solution, but "better safe than sorry" I always say (especially when it comes to loose wiring on these things)! By the way, I DID happen to find a couple of questionable ground areas while trying to sort this out . . . how anyone expects to tie in eight 14 guage wires into one 14 guage wire and have enough surface area to make a decent connection I'll never know! Thanks to everyone again for the assistance, I'll post a thread when I get the 180cc BBK engine on the road (also found a set of 18/36 tranny gears for it . . . should be interesting)!

[Alleyoop]

HAHAHA, I have a set of 18/36 gears that I was going to put in but never did I have 16/37 in there now.
I have the 18/36 ready to go with the reduction gear already pressed on.
Alleyoop

[jomama0867]

Outstanding! I'm glad I'm not the only one "crazy" enough to go EXTREME! I ran 14/36 in my original (stock) 157QMJ and was impressed at the difference, so much so that when I swapped it for the current 1P57QMJ "back-up" engine I put them in it immediately. I'm looking forward to finishing the BBK rebuild; between the 63mm bore, the A9 cam, and the 18/36 tranny gears the results should be interesting (at the least)! I'll be sure to keep you posted with the results, maybe you will be inspired to try them yourself!