LOSS OF RPMS By Alleyoop (Read 1,481 times)

[Alleyoop]

Ok, here is my problem that I have YET to find the cause. Let me first start with last years story.
I have a Ice Bear PST150H Trike got it Last year in March. It came with 10g rollers and it would run 50mph wot at 8100-8200 rpms out of the crate. I put in Racing Prodigy Variator and tried all kinds of weights. I finally decided on 12G Sliders and it was running 7200-7300 rpms at 55mph. Then all of a sudden I lost rpms and It would only run 40mph at 6000 rpms. I Tried everything, Valves adjusted, Performance Coil, Iridim plug, Performance CDI, Carb float adjusted and cleaned and none of these things helped. So then I started switching weights and nothing helped, then I left the Prodigy Variator but changed the Variator Fan and put on the OEM Fan. Took it for a test ride and my RPMS climbed to 7800rpms. Came back with a big smile and ran it that way for a little bit then changed back to the Racing Fan. Put in my 12G sliders and I was back in business running 7200-7300 rpms.

Well this year all of a sudden I am again losing RPMS. It started to run 6500-6600 rpms and would not go any higher. Now the setup I never changed it was running 7200-7300 Prodigy Variator with the matching racing Fan and 12G sliders. Now for some unknow reason my rpms dropped to 6500-6600. So I tried the same thing I did last year with no luck. So I then put in 11G Sliders and it did raise my Rpms a little it is now running 6900-7000 RPMS, But with 11g Sliders it should be running around 7500 from the orginal 7200-7300 with 12G Sliders?

So thats why currently it is only running 57-58mph at wot at 6900-7000rpms, it should be running past 60-63mph at around 7500rpms with the 11G Sliders.

I have even bought a New Carb and nothing. It runs just great up to that point and no more. No stuttering, stumble just running normal.

Its like the last part of the Throttle I get nothing, like it needs more gas or something. You think to yourself, if I could turn the Throttle a little more the rpms would go higher, but the Butterfly is all the way open already.

Now due to the OEM CHEAP PLASTIC FILTER that came with the Trike is falling apart I have no choice and just ordered a K&N Cone Filter. Now with this Filter I have no choice but to Re-jet my Carb, bigger main and more than likely bigger Pilot. So if the problem is that I am running lean now that my engine is pretty much broken in over 1000U.S miles and everything is sited. I will fine out if the loss of rpms is due to not getting enough gas at WOT with re-jetting. It will be getting plenty of gas and air at top end, so I am hopeing that will solve my loss of rpms and the last 1/4 turn of the Throttle will do something.

Alleyoop

[Alleyoop]

I have taken that sucker apart and naturally they are not marked. I do not have anything to measure the with but the normal Pilot Jet is a 35 the main Dwild62 thinks its a 90 or 92. He is also not sure what size jets come with the Carb:) But I will be starting with a #135 Main and a #38 Pilot that will be my starting point. I first have to get the Pilot Jet right so it Idles good and cranks up to about 3/4 throttle with no problems. Then I can take it out and try the Main Jet which should come on about 3/4.
Alleyoop

[Alleyoop]

Hi Dawgs,
Ok, I "THINK" I found my problem with LOSS OF RPMS, but you guys may be able to tell me if the following is my problem that I have been trying to find for the last 6 months. I believe my TIMEING is WAY OFF and that would account for the RPM LOSS. Just found this out when I went to Adjust my Valves.
Alleyoop

Here is what the Timeing looks like when the Piston is at TDC Along with the Cam. At this point the valves are loose and I adjusted them.

IF You agree that the Timeing if off, is there a Video and or instructions on how to Time it correctly. I do not know how to time this engine.

Alleyoop

[zugzug]

Looks like your cam chain slipped and your off a tooth. That will definately make your scoot run like crap. It usually means your camchain has stretched beyond its service limit or your tensioner is worn out/bad.

[Alleyoop]

Zugzug,
But here is the Thing, The Trike runs good has good pulling power and gets up and moves out, but it only gets up to 6800 rpms and will not go higher. Also the last part of the Throttle does nothing. It does not spit, fart, burp, sputter nothing it runs great, its like thats all she wrote. It should be running around 7300rpms.

Now Dwild62(Wildman, David Sr.) , said that the timeing looks good and that his Trike Timeing is the same and that it could be due to the engines being CY7s and NOT CY6s?

I will first check the Flywheel to see if the Key is in properly and has not moved out partially.
If thats good then I will take the Tensioner out and check if its working properly and the spring is in good shape.
Alleyoop

[Alleyoop]

Trikers,
Ok, I called Ice Bear about the Timeing on these Trikes and They Asked for the Pictures of the Flywheel Timeing and Cam when at TDC and they will send them to the Manufactuer and find out if the Timeing that is showing at TDC is correct or not and they will be getting back to me. So as soon as I get a respond I will update this Thread.
Alleyoop

[zugzug]

Well the pics arent that clear but when checking cam timing the mark on the case and the "T" mark should be lined up when the cam is in the position you show in the pic.
-Zug

[monstergy6]

here is another link with a clear picture of the timing marks

www.monstergy6.com/tech_center_cam_valves.htm

from your pics it looks like the timing is in, it is a bit blurry though.

I have found that you can't compare the speed to rpm ratios on a trike to a regular scooter. I believe that the gearing and ratios are different in the trike, so that will throw it off. Make sure that the belt is riding all the way up the variator as well.

[Alleyoop]

monstergy6,
you just showed the cam position not the timeing marks on the flywheel. The timeing on my Flywheel, the timeing Marker on the Case is about 1" BEFORE the "T" and "F" marks on the Flywheel. Its a little blurry but you can see the "T" and "F" on the Fly wheel and the Marker on the Case is NO WHERE NEAR IT. It looks like its Advanced quite a bit.

I am not comparing speed to rpms either, my rpms are at between 6500-6800 and no matter what Weights I put in I cannot get the rpms to go higher. I can get them to go lower depending on the weights I put in.

You have to understand I know about weights and belts and variators. Last year I could make the Trike Run anywhere the rpms range I wanted by changing weights.
1. 10G Rollers OEM Variator running 8200 rpms WOT.
2. 11G Rollers OEM Variator running 7800 rpms WOT.
3. 12G Rollers OEM Variator running 7300 rpms WOT.
4. 13G Sliders Prodigy Variator 6800-6900 rpms WOT.
5. 12G Sliders Prodigy Variator 7200-7300 rpms WOT.
6. 11G Sliders Prodigy Variator 7400-7500 rpms WOT.

Right now I still have the 12G Sliders Prodigy Variator and it was running 7200-7300 rpms at WOT then all of a sudden its NOW RUNNING 6600-6800 rpms at WOT. So as you can see that is what I have been chasing to find what is causing the 600 rpms loss.

I have marked the Variator many times to check if the belt is climbing up and right now 1/8 of the mark is left on the Prodigy Variator which is 115mm in diameter, so thats 1/4 higher than if I had the OEM Variator on which is 3/8 smaller in Diameter. I even have put on different Variators and tried different weights. Nothing I have tried gets my RPMS to 7000.

Now last year this happened to me as well but Last year my Rpms dropped to 6000-6200 and would not get any higher. I played around trying to find the cause and then one day I put in the OEM Variator and Fan with 11G Rollers and my Rpms climbed to 7800. Then I changed the Variator back to the Prodigy Variator and Fan and put in the 12G Sliders and was running 7200-7300 rpms for months. Now all of a sudden the same thing has happened Loss of rpms.
Alleyoop

[wolfhound]

Would'nt it be nice if IB published a service manual for their trikes?

[Alleyoop]

Wolfhound,
Yes it would be nice have published service manual for their trikes. Currently what comes with it is a User Manual for their 150cc TWO WHEEL SCOOTERS!!! Big help there don't you think:)

The problem I see is the people at Ice Bear do not know SQUAT about anything. We Trikers here on the forum KNOW MORE about the Trikes than any dealer in the states knows. Ask them a question and they have to go and ask Ice Bear then Ice Bear gets in touch with China to try and get an Answer because all they know is how to sell you parts. And EVEN dealing with getting the right part is a hassle. I have had to send PICTURES of the Screws and Clips that hold the Fenders? I go to their website and look up the part number but STILL they ask for pictures of what the part looks like?

My take is Buy one from a dealer that has been in business for a long time and has a good reputation and has a B&M store. They have more pull than a single person trying to get an answer and or parts.
Imagine how suprised I was when they requested a pictures to show where my timeing marks where pointing to on the flywheel. All I asked is WHAT IS THE CORRECT TIMEING for the Trikes. Then they come back and tell me the Manufactuer says the picture is a little blurry do I have any more pictures!! If you look at the Picture I sent them, you would have to be Blind not to be able to see the "T" and "F" mark on the Flywheel and where the Marker On the Caseing is pointing at.
crap they put the Engine Together and Time it They should be able to tell me what the correct timeing should be with either a Picture or a spec sheet.
So I told them that, and now I am waiting for a response from them.
Alleyoop

[Alleyoop]

Just wondering, should I take the Variator off and see if the rpms go up without any load on the engine. I have never tried that, of course I would be very easy on the Throttle wouldn't want the rpms to climb out of site:) I also have a New Performance Orange and Coil and Cdi I could also try.
Alleyoop

[Alleyoop]

Most of you guys know the story and what I have been chasing for months now with no resolution or cause. But here is a short version of my problem.

Last year this happened to me as well but Last year my Rpms dropped to 6000-6200 and would not get any higher. I played around trying to find the cause and then one day I put in the OEM Variator and Fan with 11G Rollers and my Rpms climbed to 7800 which was right on. Then I changed the Variator back to the Prodigy Variator and Fan and put in the 12G Sliders and was running 7200-7300 rpms for months. Now all of a sudden the same thing has happened Loss of rpms. It is running around 6500 rpms. I start off and the RPMS climb up to 6000 and I let it get up to speed then I twist a little more and the rpms climb to 6500, I still have some more throttle left at this point.

But when I twist the rest of the throttl which is about 1/2 inch twist on the throttle it does nothing. It does not Sputter, Bog, Burp gives no indication of anything, it just runs smoothly at the 6500 rpms but will not climb any higher. Changed to the OEM Variator with 11gram rollers like last year but RPMS did not change one bit. With the OEM Variator and 11 Gram rollers it should of run 7800rpms.

So I am wondering, should I take the Variator off and see if the rpms go up without any load on the engine. I have never tried that, of course I would be very easy on the Throttle wouldn't want the rpms to climb out of site I also have a New Performance Orange and Coil and CDI I could also try.
Alleyoop