CF Moto E-Charm stalling and dieing By rurc (Read 7,458 times)

[rurc]

Glad to be here sorry to meet by begging for help but here it is.

I just got a CF Moto E-Charm. This is the 150cc fuel injected and water cooled unit. It is a 2009 model but I bought it new 6 months ago and it has the full warranty. This does not change the fact that I am having problems and the dealer can't reproduce it.

First a couple sentences about me. I am a master gilded Porsche and Audi tech with almost 20 years repairing them. I got out of the repair industry a few years ago and now work as an aerospace engineer. I am a capable diagnostician.

OK Now what is going on. I am convinced this is 2 different issues going on at the same time. After riding for longer times, 2 hours or so, the scooter will start light failing. You can feel it in the seat of your pants. Just slight hiccups mostly under acceleration but also while steady cruising but in a far lessor degree. Sooner or later it will just die and not restart for an hour or more. It may start but this will only run for moments or until you touch the throttle.

The other issue also happens after long riding. This is cut out during vibration. What I mean here is that if I cross R/R tracks or thick painted lines, anything that vibrates the chassis rather strongly, I will get cut out and many times full shut down. I have also had this happen, which I feel is related; If I have the scooter on the main stand (the one that raises the rear wheel) and I start the scooter, when I go to push the scooter off the stand at times it will die. This happens before the scooter hits the ground. It happens right when I start to push on the handle bars foreword to roll it off the stand. This can happen even when cold but is very bad after the other above mentioned problems start, after riding for a couple of hours.

I don't have a wiring diagram as of yet.

The dealer informed me of problems with vapor lock. While this sounds right for the first problem it does not relate to the second set of issues. I have looked the system over by removing the tray above the motor and have noticed a complete lack of a fuel return system for the excess fuel. This little thing would fix any vapor lock issue and I will be designing a fix for this. I need CF Moto to give me the static fuel pressure required for the system so I can maintain the correct pressure to the injector.

Any help or diagrams will be much appreciated.

Michael

[sprocket]

Is there an electric or vacuum fuel pump on those?

The center stand/vibration issue is just weird.. Is the stand staring to fold when you do this? Sounds to me like a pulled or pinched or loose wire somewhere.. perhaps in the handlebars...kill switch etc...try the same movement but use the back rack to push it forward...

As I mentioned to another person the pick-up coils on these scooters can be flakey and cause intermittent running and stalling issues...

[Bashan]

I have a CF Moto Pegasus which has the same motor as yours but is not EFI. Also, your dealer is a weinie. We have a member, Cookees, that is a dealer and he absolutely does not treat his customers that way. I have found that the valve gap must be spot on or these engines will run hinky. If you haven't set them that might help. Also, watch your temp gauge when it starts missing a bit. I've found that if it's working up to the red zone it'll start to hesitate a bit. Let me know on the valve set, if you haven't did that and need some help let me know. We can also ask Cookees for some help if need be, he bought the EFI diagnostic machine. Rich

[rurc]

Apr 11, 2012 11:16:33 GMT -6 sprocket said:

Is there an electric or vacuum fuel pump on those?

The center stand/vibration issue is just weird.. Is the stand staring to fold when you do this? Sounds to me like a pulled or pinched or loose wire somewhere.. perhaps in the handlebars...kill switch etc...try the same movement but use the back rack to push it forward...

As I mentioned to another person the pick-up coils on these scooters can be flakey and cause intermittent running and stalling issues...

Thank you for your response.

Is there a aftermarket coil that is better? My scooter is still under warranty (only 6 months old).

Also it has an electric fuel pump.

Now I did have a plug that was fouling I was told by the dealer. They did replace it.

[rurc]

Apr 11, 2012 13:14:02 GMT -6 Bashan said:

I have a CF Moto Pegasus which has the same motor as yours but is not EFI. Also, your dealer is a weinie. We have a member, Cookees, that is a dealer and he absolutely does not treat his customers that way. I have found that the valve gap must be spot on or these engines will run hinky. If you haven't set them that might help. Also, watch your temp gauge when it starts missing a bit. I've found that if it's working up to the red zone it'll start to hesitate a bit. Let me know on the valve set, if you haven't did that and need some help let me know. We can also ask Cookees for some help if need be, he bought the EFI diagnostic machine. Rich

Thank you for the response

The temperature has never gone above half way. As a matter of fact there is a philips head screw in the instrument cluster right there at the temp gauge and the gauge rarely even covers the screw. The screw is center lined at the half way mark. I will post a photo tonight.

[sprocket]

The pick-up coil is located on the flywheel they trigger the spark.. just stock or you would have to adapt something...

Fouling plug on an EFI??? ..I would be looking at the O2 sensor...

Use NGK plugs...lots of people like iridium.. I just side gap and index the standard copper... works well...

Plug reads...

www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp

You should be burning regular fuel...not premium... to many spark retardants in the premium for these small engines...in some cases 89AKI may be good, depends on many things including elevation and the weather...

Also a cap of Seafoam to a full tank.. would help the injector stay clean...

But for these Bashan is the man. ;D

[rurc]

Apr 11, 2012 14:37:43 GMT -6 sprocket said:

The pick-up coil is located on the flywheel they trigger the spark.. just stock or you would have to adapt something...

Fouling plug on an EFI??? ..I would be looking at the O2 sensor...

Use NGK plugs...lots of people like iridium.. I just side gap and index the standard copper... works well...

Plug reads...

www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp

You should be burning regular fuel...not premium... to many spark retardants in the premium for these small engines...in some cases 89AKI may be good, depends on many things including elevation and the weather...

Also a cap of Seafoam to a full tank.. would help the injector stay clean...

But for these Bashan is the man. ;D

When I had it in for its 400 mile service the dealer said that the plug was fouling out. I never saw the plug. An O2 sensor at less than 400 miles? Well I will check it out. Should I look for it to be plugged or to have an open circuit. I wonder if it is heated or not.

This is the first time I have been told not to run premium fuel in it. I generally run premium ethanol free.

The Sea Foam is a great idea.

thank you again
Michael

[sprocket]

CF Moto E-Charm are certainly a cut above most chinese scooters in quality but parts.... who knows where they come from... Most Chinese scooters have at least one or perhaps two parts that fail in the first few months...

What is the compression on that engine 10.2:1? probably premium is ok

[rurc]

Thanks everyone for the help.

I will be working on this this weekend, time permitting. Here is the photo of what my instrument cluster look like while riding. It has gone to half way once but it never caused any of the problems I have. Those have only come after long periods of riding.

[rurc]

OK. I have done a little more. I went to another dealer and questioned them. They suggested that it may be a ign coil. Especially when I told them about the "fouled"plug. I removed the body panel that covers the front of the engine thus letting that area and the entire engine compartment get a ton of cooling air flowing through it. The problem has not happened again so far. I am going to replace the coil (mounted right next to the head to the frame) with a new one. The new dealer I found has a ton more knowledge than the place where I bought the bike.

I am now waiting on a fuel pump to arrive from CF Moto to replace the one on my scooter. Apparently the fuel pump (electric in the tank) should not leak fuel out of the electrical connector on top of the fuel pump assembly. They just told me that the pump is Back Ordered from CF Moto.

Now to work out the vapor lock issue or at least fix it so one cannot happen. Anyone know the static fuel pressure spec?

[imnts2]

perhaps another example of too much confidence. I too think I can fix anything. Most of the time I come pretty close. But every now and then I meet a Waterloo.

Appears you have one or more intermittent problems. You said it. " push it off the stand"-" hit a bump or RR track"- perhaps gets heat soaked after "running a long time"

those are the kinds of problems that defy solution. I'd guess Porches rarely have those- and we sure hope few airplanes do.

Seems I heard this scoot has a bit more flex in the frame than some of us feel comfortable with.

What to do. I would get a lawyer to write a letter to the Manufacturer and the dealer. NOW!!!. Do not try to be the diagnostician. That is the MFG and Dealers problem. You have the right to expect merchantability of a new scoot. You have a right to expect reliability as long as you do not try to fix it.

Get smart real fast. You have a lemon till it is fixed properly.

Good luck
Cheers.

[rurc]

Apr 19, 2012 5:43:27 GMT -6 imnts2 said:

perhaps another example of too much confidence. I too think I can fix anything. Most of the time I come pretty close. But every now and then I meet a Waterloo.

Appears you have one or more intermittent problems. You said it. " push it off the stand"-" hit a bump or RR track"- perhaps gets heat soaked after "running a long time"

those are the kinds of problems that defy solution. I'd guess Porches rarely have those- and we sure hope few airplanes do.

Seems I heard this scoot has a bit more flex in the frame than some of us feel comfortable with.

What to do. I would get a lawyer to write a letter to the Manufacturer and the dealer. NOW!!!. Do not try to be the diagnostician. That is the MFG and Dealers problem. You have the right to expect merchantability of a new scoot. You have a right to expect reliability as long as you do not try to fix it.

Get smart real fast. You have a lemon till it is fixed properly.

Good luck
Cheers.

I did not mean to imply that Porsche's are problem free. We had plenty of intermittent issues. And with airplanes that is why we put redundancy in them. On a piston plane there is at least 2 complete ign systems. Nor was I saying that the dealer was incompetent. I just said they could not duplicate the problem. I understand that they cant just drive it for an hour or more till it fails, that would not be cost effective. But I find it hard to believe that I am alone in this issue.

You have a point. Maybe a letter of encouragement from my lawyer would get things moving forward one way or another.

Thank you for your comments.

[rurc]

GREAT NEWS

Everything has been fixed. Was finally to trace everything to the coil, including the pushing on the handle bars to get off of center stand. The coil was going inop once it got hot. Then found the wire supplying ground to the coil had broken internally. So it was 2 different problems, like I thought, but they had one common fix. I have replaced the coil (took a long time to get) and have made a vent in the rear panel of the foot well to keep all this cooler. Now I am going to start a thread on a full on upgrade to all LED lights and HID headlamp. This will require a lot of wire harness mods.............

Thank you to everyone that made any comment

[sprocket]

ride on..great news!

I did all LEDs a few years go..they are straight plug ins..on the HID you should be OK , but many go from an 8 coil stator to 11 coils to drive them...I think there are 35 watt kits , so I suggest you go with those rather than trying 55 watts...

You will need resistors in the flasher circuits if you use LEDs there my be issues with the HIDs ...they run very hot and melt the plastic lens...depends on the style...

just a heads up

[rurc]

Jun 5, 2012 17:18:17 GMT -6 sprocket said:

ride on..great news!

I did all LEDs a few years go..they are straight plug ins..on the HID you should be OK , but many go from an 8 coil stator to 11 coils to drive them...I think there are 35 watt kits , so I suggest you go with those rather than trying 55 watts...

You will need resistors in the flasher circuits if you use LEDs there my be issues with the HIDs ...they run very hot and melt the plastic lens...depends on the style...

just a heads up

Yes the basic LED change over would be just plug and play if that was all. But I cant do that. The change over to LED's will not include resistors. The reasons I want to go to LED's are;
1 their faster on time is great for safety,
2 brighter with less power usage,
3 take load of the charging system.

Now adding resistors is not a smart thing to do. One if you exactly match the resistance of the original lamp you may as well just keep the original light bulb. The addition of the resistor takes away the benefit of lower wattage draw. Think about it. There will special circuitry made to electronically flash the LED's

Doing the HID will be the wiring challenge. You dont want HID lights to get shocks to their voltage systems. So since my CF Moto runs the head light all the time that will be a problem. There is not switch for the headlight. So my plan is to take the 2 light that run on the same wire harness as the headlight and change them into day time running lights. I will get 2 x 7 watt LED 194 style lights and wire them separately. Right now the CF Moto has a switch that will turn on and off the running lights. What I am going to do is wire that switch to turn on and off the new HID light. Then the other lights, as well as the 2 x 7 watt daytime running lights will be wired to always on. The HID is 35 watt (bi xenon). The total wattage usage after the change over will be less than how it was originally. I have bought a used headlamp assembly to test the HID for melting and beam pattern.

This is not going to be your standard work up.