Hunter's Prodigy 150 By Bashan (Read 4,358 times)

[Bashan]

Hunter PM'd me few times about a wiring and spark problem he was having. When I realized it wasn't going to be an easy fix I thought I should post it for everyone to see and participate. Now Hunter is like a lot of folks, not quite up to speed yet on communications via the electronic media. I think if I remember right this is a friend's bike and he's trying to do him a favor. The bike is dead in the water with no spark. The wiring is in a mess and he is trying to get that straightened out so that testing is possible. Stan does know how to run a multimeter. So after some wrestling with photobucket I was able to look at some pics and try to sort things out.

First of all, this is a 150 Prodigy probably made by CMS. There's some other Prodigies out there, I think Znen makes one. I also think this is the GY7 as some people call it because of the 16" wheels and different bolt patterns. Anyway, Stan got me some pics! He wanted me to look at this picture that had quite a few unidentified wires:

Now I can't tell the perspective on that CDI so I had to make a logical guess on the wires. #9 and #10 give us some orientation as the kill is only in the CDI two port next to the power port. This is an interesting setup, it is a three phase stator which is usually associated with a DC CDI. But this bike definitely has a dedicated magneto coil that supplies the AC CDI with 50 to 100v AC. This wire is usually red/black or visa versa, but the wire in Stan's pic looks red as can be as if it were a battery wire. But it is definitely AC as I'll show you in a moment. #7 and #8 are the coil supply and trigger wire respectively. Now it is not all that unusual for a trigger wire to be red/white but they are usually some permutation of blue. However, we're going to need to get Stan to check something for us a little later on. Yellow/white connector with a green ground is usually the fuel gauge. The wires on the left are tail/ brake lights and turn signals.

This is one big arse rectifier/regulator for a 150. You have your three stator AC yellow wires going into the R/R, and the two DC power wires coming out both at 12v DC. It's unusual to have the white wire as this is usually black. However, with this bike it very soon changed to a black wire past the coupler.

I have to go pretend I'm a normal human for a while but I'll be back. Oh foolish Earthlings! Feel free to add to this thread, all contributions are welcome.

[hunter]

Bashan, I'm going to add some input as you go along. It'll help me keep up. The #9 is indeed bk/w and #10 does look red in the pic but it is r/bk. Hope I don't go color blind before you get thru.LOL

[tvnacman]

can you turn on your headlights without the engine running ?

John

[cyborg]

did the bike run before it shut down? if so don't mess with the wireing,,,could be a bad cdi,,,magnet came out of flywheel so the hall effect sensor isn't getting a signal? ,,bad coil? is the coil getting power (fuse?) bad ignish switch?,,,all the connector plugs seated correctly? any of the plugs corroded? sparkplug bad? (i've seen that one what a ball buster),,,if the bike ran before i doubt highly it's the wireing unless one broke inside or a terminal failed

[Bashan]

TV and Cyborg have very good points.....on their heads!! That emoticon illustrates my wife's reaction every time I make that joke. Of course she says it's not a joke, it's more of an irritant.

But seriously, John makes a great point, lights that come on with the engine turning are AC powered because the stator has to be spinning to generate AC. If all of your lights come on with the key they are DC powered. Of course, some systems use a solenoid that delays some lights from coming on until the bike starts to take some stress off of the battery.

Cyborg has an especially sharp point, but also makes a valid assertion that we shouldn't start tearing into the wiring until we're sure it is the wiring. I also have been fooled by a pretty new spark plug failing. You think that can't be it because you changed it recently but new ones can fail. So heed Cyborg's advice and check the electricals before you tear into them, and avoid his needle like parietal bone.

OK Stan, thanks, you're ID of the wires helps a lot. Also, add as much as you'd like, it all helps. Now, there's been some discussion about whether this is an AC or DC fired system, that is, AC or DC CDI. I'm voting for AC because the stator harness has the three yellows that are indicative of a three phase stator, a blue trigger coil wire, and a ground wire. In addition, there's the red/black that, contained in the stator harness can only be AC power to the CDI IMO. If it was a DC CDI there would be no power wire at all for the CDI in the stator harness, it would come from the ignition! Stan, what are the black cable and green wire? Grounds I assume but from where?

If I remember right from my conversation with Stan, he metered the red/black wire at something like 70v AC, is that right Stan? Stan? Wake up buddy, I know I'm long winded, I'll try to include more aspects of brevity into my analyses of.....I'm doing it again aren't I?

OK, one thing I'm not sure of yet is the trigger wire. Stan, are you sure the blue wire that is in the stator harness does indeed become the red/white that plugs into the trigger port on the CDI? It is imperative that it is.

This is NOT Stan's stator, I'm using it to illustrate the magneto coil. REPEAT, THIS IS NOT STAN'S STATOR. Stan's rather odd system has three yellow AC wires supplying the bike with ample juice for whatever it needs. And yet they deem it necessary to use a separate magneto coil to supply the CDI. She is rather bloated in this pic but promises to lose weight now that the holidays are firmly behind her.

OK Stan, here's the diagram as promised. This is how I think your system is configured based on the information I have so far:

So you should attach the three yellows from the stator to the three yellows on the R/R in any order, it doesn't matter. That applies to hooking ANY THREE PHASE TO IT'S R/R. You can leave that split yellow going to the auto-choke, it'll work fine like that. You could hook a DC supply line to it and loose the split if you want. The choke will run on DC or AC. That ground wire is not for the stator yellow coils, they do not ground. It is for the trigger wire, and the dedicated magneto coil.

The red wire from the R/R will split. Run one wire directly to the battery and fuse it, I'm guessing 20A. The other wire will run to your ignition switch. The white wire off you R/R turns black and runs to the ignition then splits to power DC systems. When you turn on the key it connects the red to black and energizes the black. You asked me about the brown wire, it is a branch off of the black and becomes hot with the key.

The blue needs to end up in the trigger port of the CDI! Use your continuity function and make sure it does so. Also, I'd meter the current on the blue, it will be a low AC current, but it needs to be above .05v AC. Here's how you do it.

The red/black has to go into the power port. I'd continuity test that also, and recheck the voltage.

The coil feed has to go to the black terminal of the coil. Continuity test the wire and also there is a way to test the voltage I found, and that is right here.

OK, onward, the green white goes into one of the two ground ports. Why is it green/white and not just green? Because it runs to a ground cut switch. This wire provides a ground as long as the safety switch is closed. Put the stand down and it cuts the CDI's ground and pfft, the engine stalls.

This CDI also has a black/white killwire. When you turn the key off you ground this wire and it kills the engine. Hook it up Stan.

Here is the CDI port designations, an AC CDI must have AC power into the power port and the DC a 12v DC from the ignition. You CANNOT USE AN AC DCI IN A DC SYSTEM and visa versa:

Well Stan, I guess you figured out I am using your thread as a tutorial in addition to getting you fixed up. I hope you don't mind. Hook it up and let's see if we have spark. If not we'll look a little farther downstream. Rich

[cyborg]

my head is not pointy,,,it's kinda round and bulbous like megamind's,,on the other hand my nickname is needleduck

[cyborg]

my head is not pointy,,,it's kinda round and bulbous like megamind's,,on the other hand my nickname is needleduck

[cyborg]

don't know why it's a repeat post but the punchline is needledi*k

[Bashan]

I keep repeating them until somebody laughs. Of course that can take hours, or days, and by then it's just a dry, disoriented cackle, but I still win. Do you have this effect on every forum?! We are seriously tilting to the darkside. The Proboards overlords have sent this message: Klaatu barada nikto. Read 'em and weep.

[cyborg]

The coolest of early creep sic-fi. THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL!!!!,,,,,I have an original unused pristine still in the tube poster for that movie

[Bashan]

Oh no you do not girlfriend!!:

That is so cool! I'd have to vote, just barely, for Forbidden Planet. In any event FP had Altaira and TDTESS had Helen. Not only did they always misjudge their sweater size when shopping but couln't walk in high heels let alone run from a monster/robot/bad guy without falling on their arse and shrieking. Of course who hasn't?! I think I said too much.

Wow, I think I just my own thread! Sorry Stan, we're just killing time until you get that wired up and see what happens.

[cyborg]

rich i liked you better with the dance pole and red hair,,,,AND GIGANTIC MAMMARIES,,,,but this new look of yours could work,,geez you're a regular chameleon

[Bashan]

This is a PM from Stan:

Howdy to all. Ok Bashan you've come up with some great diagrams, I have quite the library. Some good comments from the other members, the lights come on with just key and the one about the bad plug is going to lead to a DUH moment if that's it cause I never checked it myself, it was tested before I inherited this mess, he was the one who told me it was the coil. I took it for granted he used another plug. Anyway, this started because I tried to fix a running light problem, Have threads about it from last year, Alley oop helped me some with that. never did get them to work using a diagram, they fed from one of the yellow wires but would flicker and quit. After some more advice I just wired the brown wire to the black wire, under the seat, and they stayed on fine, all lights came on with the key. The scoot was driven home, turned off, never to start again. Feeling that I messed something up, I want to find a diagram that matches what the wires do, colors and all. I will re-wire as needed then put the batt. in for the voltage tests. What I need is the hand held tester that sends out 12v power over a wire or connection, I've seen them. Hook up ground,send power through tip to wire end and it will light up the bulb, headlight,taillight, whatever. I don't know if they make them to put out a/c? Anybody? I want to really double check the wiring first cause my stupidity may have caused a unit to blow. One question, your diagram shows my headlight feeding from a yellow wire, but the light comes on with just the key? All the other lights show feeding from the brown or black wires and are key opporated. Haven't removed any panels but there is a switch on the right handlebar that has three posisitions,full right,no spark,middle,running lights, left running&head lights? Thanks everyone, I'll be in touch. Stan

[Bashan]

Jan 21, 2014 1:41:33 GMT -6 @Hunter said:

the one about the bad plug is going to lead to a DUH moment if that's it cause I never checked it myself, it was tested before I inherited this mess, he was the one who told me it was the coil.

Right, my point was I check a lot of things that probably were checked before, while I'm doing repairs. It only takes a few moments and it can save a great deal of time. Swap out the plug and see what it does.

Jan 21, 2014 1:41:33 GMT -6 @Hunter said:

Anyway, this started because I tried to fix a running light problem, never did get them to work using a diagram, they fed from one of the yellow wires but would flicker and quit. I just wired the brown wire to the black wire, under the seat, and they stayed on fine, all lights came on with the key.

The lights should not have been wired into one of the yellows. The three yellows are rectified and regulated to 12v DC to run DC systems and charge the battery, via the red and black (white) wires from the R/R. They should not be used to run systems before running through the R/R, the auto-choke notwithstanding. The lights should be hooked to the black wire from the ignition switch. When you turn on the key the black wire is energized from the red wire which is actually from the battery. Pulling that power from just one of the yellows may have roasted the R/R. Running the brown off of the black would work in most configurations.

Jan 21, 2014 1:41:33 GMT -6 @Hunter said:

The scoot was driven home, turned off, never to start again. Feeling that I messed something up, I want to find a diagram that matches what the wires do, colors and all.

Stan, I doubt we're going to get a diagram that is specific for your bike. That's what we're trying to do, improvisational wiring. I think you're going to have to pull the body panels and take some pics so I can see what's going on under there, if we can't get a handle on this.

Jan 21, 2014 1:41:33 GMT -6 @Hunter said:

I will re-wire as needed then put the battery in for the voltage tests. What I need is the hand held tester that sends out 12v power over a wire or connection, I've seen them. Hook up ground,send power through tip to wire end and it will light up the bulb, headlight,taillight, whatever. I don't know if they make them to put out a/c? Anybody?

I wouldn't think so for AC. You have to have a spinning stator or an inverter and they're pretty hefty. Anyhow you don't need AC to diagnose problems. If a DC voltage works the circuit is OK, most of the time. The only time the voltage has to specific is if diodes are involved. Why not install your battery and when you need a circuit tested turn the key on? Anyway, continuity will show you what you need to know. If the continuity is good the circuit will energize with the battery.

Jan 21, 2014 1:41:33 GMT -6 @Hunter said:

One question, your diagram shows my headlight feeding from a yellow wire, but the light comes on with just the key?

I'm sorry but the diagram I put up doesn't show the lights including the headlights. If you'll look at the diagram you'll see the arrow that has 12v DC inside. That means that it should be a 12v DC source which would include the lights. However we haven't got that far, we want to get it running first.

Jan 21, 2014 1:41:33 GMT -6 @Hunter said:

All the other lights show feeding from the brown or black wires and are key opporated. Haven't removed any panels but there is a switch on the right handlebar that has three posisitions,full right,no spark,middle,running lights, left running&head lights?

That is your killswitch. They often have a couple positions that activate a couple different light confiurations. That switch MUST BE SET TO A RUN POSITION FOR THE SPARK TO BE WORKING. That would be the one on left. Make sure you check that Stan. Here's a pic:

[Bashan]

I just got another PM from Stan. I'd like everyone to read it and I'd appreciate thoughts on what this might have done to the R/R. Also, any thoughts about grounding the R/R with the green wire. PM from Stan:

Here again. First, in one of the pics I sent you posted it and circled two wires near the R/R a green and black and asked where they went. The black one is a ground strap from the engine to the frame. The green one grounds the R/R body, it goes into the harness and half taps to the main green feed. I haven't opened the harness to see the splice but it meters okey end to end. So, armed with my diagram library I have one by one started to undo what I did working on the running lights. I didn't catch it right off so I'm not positive (99%) but I had connected a R/R yellow from the stator, before the R/R, to a green, ground source. In short, I grounded a yellow a/c wire. This may have blown something, like the CDI or the power coil in the stator or something. I'm well on my way, thanks to everyone at Scooter Doc. The biggest tip to Bashan. I'll give you a heads up, I think what I'll need next are resistance readings for electrical parts. Starter, coil, cdi, r/w and r/b wires all that stuff. I'd like to have a base line before I turn anything over, I need something to compare the spinning readings to. After I get the powered up readings I can ask if those are ok. So far, so good, now if I don't go color blind I should be ok. Thanks to all.

Stan