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Post by looker on Nov 23, 2010 13:51:19 GMT -6
Hi guys, Alleyoop, belt was an 842.20.30, scoot came with the 835. Variator is actually 107mm, so's the fan plate. I'm leaning towards the problem being caused by the bearing running too hot and the clutch over heating. What should be grease is now just a sticky and hard black mess. Scoot ran fine before this happened. Sequence of failure is as follows, about 5 miles into ride it started the same pull away slowly problem, 1 mile latter the brakeing effect off the throttle started, pulled over and could smell that warm rubber smell (like a new tire smell) touched the belt cover and the rear was a lot hotter than the front. After a short while continued towards home, mile a so later the shaking/juddering started, before I got the chance to stop in a safe place the revs shot up and I lost all drive. Pushed the scoot the remaining 2 miles home. The belt looks so low in the pulleys because it's actually turned through 90 degrees at those points, which again leads me to think of a heat problem. Rich, wheel and clutch turns fine, both before and after what happened to the belt. I can't see how that stuff would have come from the bearings in the clutch, the oil seal on the shaft looks fine and there's no evidence of grease or oil of any kind beihnd the clutch once it's been removed. Changed the gear oil a couple weeks ago and still looked new in color and feel. Whatever that is on the trans was also of a thick consistancy and kinda 'rubbery' between finger and thumb. The rear wheel was also off about a month or so ago (and after that black stuff appearred) to be taken to the shop to have a new tire fitted, and I could'nt find anything that looked out of place at the time. It's got me stumped too, I guess I'll only find out where it's coming from if I strip down that part of the trans. There has'nt been any more appear since. I'm waiting for a socket to remove the nut on the clutch now so I can strip it down and clean it up. I'm hoping the bearing will still be useable, won't know 'till I get all the grease cleaned out and re-pac it. There was'nt any play in the assembly while it was on the scoot. Thanks guys, really appreciate being able to talk this stuff through with like minded people, and the advice and thoughts really help, Mike  |
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Post by looker on Nov 22, 2010 15:56:40 GMT -6
Hi guys, took my scoot out today after fitting a new Gates Powerlink belt because I had a problem with the scoot pulling away slowly the other day. Thought it was the belt as it felt a bit loose and it's width had reduced. Could'nt see any other obvious problems so changed it and thought that would be that. After the new belt was fitted the same slow pull away problem came back, decided to cut the ride short and head home. Got a few miles from home and I could feel a shaking or vibration. About 1/2 a mile later the engine revs shot up and I lost drive. This is what I was greeted with when I pulled the belt cover off,   and what's left of the belt,  A short while ago I spotted this at the end of the case,  did'nt look or feel like oil, more like grease that had broken down and leaked out of somewhere. Not being able to trace where that hole came from, I cleaned it up and kept an eye on that hole to see if anymore came out. None did. Pulled the clutch assy off today and the grease that should be lubing the bearings is now black and more like treacle, and the needle roller bearing moves but it's a bit tight. Could this be what I found on the case? (still can't trace where that hole goes) the last of the bearing grease? Could that bearing have been running so hot now that the heat transfered to the clutch pulley and melted the belt? I'm a bit stuffed now. Can these bearings be bought seperately does anyone know, and from where? If not, it's a whole new clutch, strip it down, clean it out and re-grease the bearings with some proper LM grease. If anyone else has had this problem and found a fix, please let me know. At the very least, I hope this brings to other peoples attention to keep an eye on those bearings and the condition of the grease so it does'nt happen to them. Many thanks, Mike |
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Post by looker on Nov 22, 2010 14:52:02 GMT -6
Alleyoop, I hope I hav'nt offended you, that was certainly not my intention, if I have please accept my apologise. You have helped me enormously and I really appreciate it. I think my problem has outgrown this thread and what I meant by saying I will start another one was that hopefully more people will see it and be able to help, aswell as your good self. I hope you continue to offer your advice. Many thanks, Mike |
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Post by looker on Nov 22, 2010 10:34:57 GMT -6
well s**t on me  Took the scoot out for a ride, less than 10 miles, still doing the same thing, but seems to be once it's warmed up. Also noticed that when you come off the throttle and coast to a stop, as the revs get down to just under 4000 it's as though there is a brakeing effect going on somewhere, when the revs get just below 3000 it disappears  That's not the end of it, thought I'd cut the drive short and head home as the problem was still there, got a few miles from home and there seemed to be a 'shaking' going on, another half mile and I lost all drive. I'm assuming the belt has snapped as there was no clanging or banging (from anything metallic letting go), just the engine revs shot up and drive went. Killed the engine and pulled over. Had to push it the other 2 miles home, uphill at first, then thankfully down hill for the last mile. I'm knackered, not been home long, sweating like a pig even though it's cold so jumped in the shower and then sat down with a coffee to write this. Gonna go out to the garage and pull it apart again. I'm thinking it's the clutch got overheated and bye bye new belt. Only put the bugger on the other day, that's a new belt going in the garbage  I'll take some pics and start a new thread once I know what's what. Not that I don't like talking to ya alley, but hopefully I'll get some others replying Many thanks bud, Mike. |
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Post by looker on Nov 22, 2010 7:21:55 GMT -6
alleyoop, you're a real star bud My scoot is a 125cc. These and the 150's seem to share a lot of the same parts size wise. I'm gonna take the scoot out soon for a ride to see if the new belt has solved the problem. Gonna strip the trans down when I get back home and takes some measurements. I think I really need a new bell, scrappydog have a nice drilled one for 40 bucks, hopefully he'll be willing to post to the u.k. What do you think the black coating is inside that variator? could it be Teflon maybe? I've read that it comes off after a while gumming up the rollers. Does look like a good deal though. The kit would give me 4 sets of rollers about the 13g mark, a new variator assembly which could be kept for a spare at least, a new clutch assy with spare springs and a contra spring. Buying all that seperately would cost a lot more, and I'm sure it will all get used over the working life of the scoot. Any idea what kind of mileage these scoots are capable of in general? 30,000...40,000....more? I know it depends on how it's looked after. I change the oil about every 1500 miles, and the transfer box oil 'bout 2000, 2500. It's not riden particularly hard. Many thanks again, Mike |
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Post by looker on Nov 21, 2010 18:08:40 GMT -6
Thanks Rich, epay link, cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4712.m2000054&item=330498987405&viewitem=Anyone seen/used this kit before? Looks like a fairly good piece of kit to me, but what do I know  All I'd need then would be a new bell, kidnme have a nice ally one. I've been looking at the Dr pulley hit clutch too, but that's way out of my price range at the mo, maybe in the future once the scoot has served it's work purpose and becomes a summer leisure vehicle ;D Cheers, Mike |
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Post by looker on Nov 21, 2010 16:24:04 GMT -6
Alleyoop, I see what you're saying I'm not too sure, but I think it's pulling about 8000 rpm to hit the 50 or so mph mark. I'll make a mental note of that next time I get out. I think I'll start by waiting for the scales to arrive so I know for sure what rollers I have in there, then try some other ones a gram or so lighter. If that gives me what I'm looking for without losing too much top end, sorted  If I do need to change the contra spring, is there any way to tell what the rating is of the one that's in there? I don't want to be changing it if it has the same rated one in there. This leaves me with a dilemma, if I end up buying parts seperately, and need to buy quite a few, am I better off buying some sort of tuning kit to start with? Hmmm...decisions decisions.. is it o.k. to link to ebay on this forum so I can give you an idea of what I'm looking at and if it's any good or a pile of poo? Cheers, Mike |
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Post by looker on Nov 21, 2010 15:00:50 GMT -6
Alleyoop, thanks again, you're a tremendous help If you don't mind, with the lighter weights, will I lose top end speed, or it will just take longer to get there? Or will the difference be negligable? I'm guessing from you're previous post that it will take more revs to reach the same top speed, efectively losing a bit at the top to keep the engine from reving it's nuts off? Cheers, Mike |
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Post by looker on Nov 21, 2010 14:16:12 GMT -6
Alleyoop, many thanks Cold idleing: I'll give that a go, I had'nt considered playing with the mixture as the plugs I've changed out had looked in good condition and about the right colour for a used plug. Rollers: I think the standard ones are 14 gram, I have a set of digital scales coming so will be able to tell when that arrives. If I'm reading you right, when mixing 2 different sized weights, put them in...say....11g, then 12g...11, 12...11, 12? that's how I imagined doing it. If that works out to be a good weight choice and I buy some decent 11.5g rollers, will the variator not work differently due to all the rollers being the same weight? Do you see what I mean? I'm having trouble getting my head round using different weight rollers at one time in the variator. Clutch: I'm hoping it was the belt causing the problem, hav'nt been out on the scoot since I changed it. Clutch pads do look o.k. I think the bell may be distorted and causing, or at least adding to the juddering problem. Could be that it's not that bad untill the belt starts to wear and then the 2 combine to cause a noticable judder at slow speeds. Contra spring: so the higher the RPM rating, the stronger the spring. Same for the clutch shoe springs? and the higher the RPM rating, the more revs you need to engage the clutch shoes? and the contra to open up the pulley and change the gear ratio? I think I'm getting the gist of it now Many thanks for taking the time to read my long winded post and make a reply, really appreciate it, Mike |
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Post by looker on Nov 21, 2010 11:29:20 GMT -6
Hi guys, I'm geting to know my scooter now-a-days, how things work, how to change things etc etc...I have a Peugeot Sum Up 125 gy6 based scooter (QMI152) I had a little problem the other day when I pulled away from the traffic lights, engined revved up fine but the scoot pulled away slower than normal. Got up to speed o.k. and the problem went away after a short while (pulled off the main drag and went round some quiet streets stopping and starting). Pulled the belt cover off when I got home to see if I could find anything obvious. Belt was a bit loose and about 18.5mm wide, I think the service life is 19mm, so put a new belt on. While I was at it I took the variator and clutch off which both seemed fine apart from the bell. It seems to have uneven wear on the inner surface, to me it looks as though the tack welds that hold a metal ring on the outside of it have slightly distorted the overall roundness of the inner surface. Could this cause clutch slip? I sometimes get a judder form the trans when moving at slow speeds, though it has previously disapeared after a belt change. Am I missing something? do you think. The rollers looked fine, they've done about 2500 miles if memory serves, the only thing I noticed was the ramp plate is a little stiff moving up the basket for the first few mil. Could'nt see any obvious flat spots on the rollers. Is there a general service life to rollers, or just change them when they wear out? Basket is clean and free of crud, the only lubing I've done to it was an application of graphite powder. A few things I'm having trouble understanding, roller weights for one. Lighter ones give better pick-up/acceleration, heavier ones give a better top speed, at the cost of acceleration. Does this mean lighter ones will reduce the top speed? Also, mixing rollers of different weight. Say, 3x12g and 3x14g for instance, how does this work? Won't the heavier rollers negate the lighter ones on accleration, or am I missing something again? And clutch springs, what's the RPM rating about? This time of year my scoot needs a higher tick over (about 1800RPM) otherwise it cuts out a lot when cold. If I had 1500RPM springs on the clutch shoes, would the rear wheel be trying to turn all the time at tick over? And the big spring inside the clutch assembly, how does the RPM rating work on this? Sorry to prattle on, but I'm looking into toying with the roller weights. The scoot seems to be fine overall, pulling away nicely and giving about 55mph indicated on the speedo, 65mph on a slight downhill with no headwind but pulling about 9000RPM. I've no GPS system to confirm these are actual speeds, the only way I have to verify the accuracy of the speedo is following behind a vehicle as it goes past a speed camera at say 30mph or 40mph (we have looooooads of speed cameras here) and the speedo seems fairly accurate. What I am looking for is a slightly better pull away from stand still and those times when I'm passing stationary cars at red lights and the light turns green and I throttle up. Is finding a cheapish set of different weight rollers and toying around with the variator to find the best weight a good thing to try? And then getting some quality rollers at that weight? Oh, one more thing, the ramp plate appears as though it's cut and formed from a single piece, this seems to have left some 'edges' to one side of the plate which in turn seems to affect the fit of the guide bushes. I only have a very small amount of funds for the scoot at the mo, but I'm willing to pay out for a whole new variator if it will improve things. Any ideas on a good make. Postage from the States is quite a lot of bucks to here, so I'll need to look around other online stores for a good price. Any tips on the clutch front would be aprreciated too. Sorry, just remembered, riding habits of the bike are....open roads mainly into London (though I tend to stay off the freeway style dual carriage way for the most part) and then it's onto the streets of London with lots of stop/start riding. I want to retain the 50mph or so speed of the scoot for the main roads, but a bit of nippyness around town. Is it one or the other, am I dreaming to have both? Thanks for reading and sorry to go on for so long, Mike |
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